Making 25-20 cases

[uncle jimbo]

Since I got my Marlin 25-20 working like it should again, I am back to realizing I need casing.
So I know one can resize 32-20 down to 25-20, but there are two big problems, one is the base thickness of the 32-20 being bigger and not working in all rifles in 25-20 and second is the failure rate of resizing the 32-20.
I have found some 218 bees cases and with all measurement being the same except the bullet diameter ,length and shoulder diameter, 218 being .329" and 25-20 being .333". If I sized it up, the shoulder would blow out with the first shooting, I can trim to proper length for 25-20.
My question I guess is can I size the case mouth up to .034" without weakening the case neck to much.
I already have the 25-20 dies, so is resizing up easier or resizing down easier?
I've never resized cases before so this is new to me.

 

[RicinYakima]

Expanding the neck has always been easier for me. In fact, the 218 Bee to 25/20 was the first I ever did in the 1980's when 218 Bee cases were common and 25/20 hard to find. Unless new, gently anneal / stress releave the necks and clean inside and out. I made a tapered plug to gentle flare the .22 neck up to easily fit the decapping pin expander in the Pacific die set I had. Lube with a good case lube, none of the spray on stuff, like Imperial sizing die wax, both inside and outside the neck. As the case neck starts to expand, lower the ram and rotate 1/4 turn until fully expanded and continue rotating until fully in the die.

I never had good luck sizing down with the 32/20 case because the necks are so thin. Never got the knack of not having too much lube and folding the case, or not enough and collapsing the case.

Good Luck.

 

[RBHarter]

It seems like there ought to be a step die for that job . It doesn't seem like there are few if any at all pistols between 25 and 30 cal . My search popped up a Redding form and trim die right away . The 256 Winchester was the only one that grabbed me not enough to drive me but to look .
I wonder if a 256 sizer might be a tool to setup the step down . It's only size about half the neck and be big enough to let it he lube by without dents . Then you'd only have half the neck to reform in the sizer . Just spit balling . I used a 256 die on 223 to 222 because I ruined as many cases as I made , then I stumbled one 200 222 so I don't have to do that now .

 

[Bret4207]

It might be worth a try to anneal the 218 cases, prime, add a little BE and a wax plug in the case mouth and try firing it. They may blow out just fine. Or not.

 

[JSH]

Virgin 32-20, decap pin out, FL size in 32-20 die. 25-20 die, clean die with acetone. Bump the neck at least once, I do mine twice. DO NOT put ANY lube on the neck. If you have to, use some graphite sparingly.
On the third time in the die a little lube right at the web, just because some dies may be smaller.

I did a couple of thousand for a few friends a few winters back. Set my Hornady progressive up, tinkered with it and went to work. I did tell them to FL size in their dies as they were shooting several different guns.
I lost maybe 15-20 out of all of those.

If you expand up do yourself a favor.
At least uniform the necks some how. Even if you just run them over any .22CF expander, Mdie works well.
Inside and outside chamfer. Makes a huge difference in splitting cases. I use a qtip with a bit of lube for the inside, every other one will be fine, half beats doing all.
Now your prepped to neck up with less issues.
Run by feel. If some thing feels wrong or to hard, it probably is.
Tapered expanders are a must. If you have the more squared off ones you will have some issues.

 

[uncle jimbo]

I have 22-250 dies, so I can true the necks before I start.

 

[uncle jimbo]

OK, it is uncle jimbo's stupid question time.

As I have been studying up on this resizing of cases, I keep reading about Imperial Sizing Wax. I have always used RCBS case lube on their roller pads with no problems. But I have never resized cases before.
So, do I need this sizing wax or will the case lube work. Anyone used sizing wax?

paul

 

[david s]

Imperial Sizing Wax is now owned and marketed by Hornady, I don't think it's called "Imperial Sizing Wax" but some new name of Hornady's. It's sold in a round, red, Skoll (slightly smaller dia.) type tin. I have a tin of this from when Redding made it and a little (very little) goes a long way. The lightest smear is all you need. I haven't used it sizing cases up 300 WM to 338 WM (case lube) but I do use it when sizing down 300 WM to 270 Weatherby mag. I do use it when making 32-20 into 25-20 or 218 Bee. I use almost the exact process JSH uses but first I run the 32-20 case into the 25-20 bullet seating die. This goes very easily, then into the 25-20 FL die and this requires quite a bit more (but still pretty trivial) effort. I consider it very important to FL size 32-20 cases when beginning or where ever the parent case has a crease or dent is where the case will fold.

 

[david s]

If you get a smear of RCBS case lube on your finger and rub it on the 218 Bee's case mouth so the lube ends up inside the case mouth then try and resize in your 25-20 FL die you may be okay. I think you'll wrinkle/crush the shoulder though. A better way would be to remove your de-capping stem from the 25-20 FL die and run the 218 Bee case into it (lube like normal). This will move the shoulder back and leave the case about 80% of what you want. Then replace the de-capping stem, get some case lube inside the case mouth and run the case a second time. When reforming brass trying to do to much at once leads to most problems. I've gone smaller 32-20 to 25-20 or 218 Bee but I haven't tried necking a 218 to 25-20 so this is just a guess on my part. The 25-20 has quite a bit longer neck than the 218 Bee and I think you'll end up with a 100% usable case if they don't crush. Maybe the case will be a bit long though. Good luck

 

[Bret4207]

I can verify that ANY lube on the outside of a 32/20 or 25/20 case will give you dents. I've never used sizing wax, but have used a lot of graphite, Motor-Mica actually, inside case necks. Smoothed things out for me when turning 220 Swift brass into 303 brass, but that's a lot thicker brass than even the outstanding Starline 32-20 stuff.

 

[Eutectic]

I'll praise this group as a bunch that is extremely conscious of details when it comes to dynamics of casting, alloys, bullet fit, lubes, sizing.... You name it! Very skilled!
Case forming is not on the list however....

Case forming is a tedious chore! I ask you..... My thought on this is why not make "match quality" .25-20 brass if the additional time involved is minimal?? Someone laughing about needing 'match' brass in .25-20 has never shot a Savage Model 23!

My first case forming was for the .250-3000 Savage. It was a new old stock RCBS forming set I found that still cost me $75!!! Before I ever ran a G.I. .30-06 through them I was learning! Forming dies work in steps. IF YOU HAVE TO INCREASE BODY TAPER that is your first step! Only a MINOR amount of neck reduction will be tolerated before dents and even longitudinal stretchmarks begin to happen! The #1 die in the RCBS forming set JUST DOES THE STEEPER .250 body taper! As I learned, I kept learning. .25-35 is another piece of brass hard to find! But I have a ton (OK a couple hundred pounds of .30-30 brass. EVEN IF YOU MINIMIZE LUBE you can get shoulder dents! Trapped air can do them too! But the heavy taper change does a number on the body! You have a .30-30 casing now sized like a .25-35 that has longitudinal body stretch marks like a poor gal 9 months pregnant with triplets!
A .32-40 full length sizer cured this as a first step! (I learned from RCBS)

S o o .... You have a body taper increase taking .32-20 down to .25-20. So using your .25-20 full length sizer is out of the question even a little at a time as some recommend, or the seater die as well! RCBS makes a CORRECT forming set.... but I didn't have that much money in the bank! SO I pondered......

I thought about cutting down a RCBS .270 Win full length sizer as a first step.... Yeah I know.... the body will be unsupported. So I pondered more....

I had a .280 Remington case blown out to .280 Ackley on my bench.... A light bulb came on! I cut the case off to 1 11/16". I started sizing the body taper down using the ,270 die. As I thought, just before the shell holder touched a Starline .32-20 rim O.D. just kissed the I.D. of the .280 stub! I cut a ,223 case off so it seated rim up into the .280 stub. It is 3/8" down into the .280 stub. This functions as a centering device and allows you to get deep enough into the .270 die to do your work!

I make sure my new Starline .32-20 casing is neck expanded and de-burred. I set the die depth to size the neck and start the shoulder depth leaving it long. Then I run the cases through a RCBS 6.5-06 full length reducing neck a little and setting the now 17°30' shoulder back some more. Again with a .257 Roberts die. Shoulder is now about .015" too long........ I anneal and FINALLY use the .25-20 full length to finish neck and shoulder to length.

I never get oil dents..... I never lose a case reforming. If a .32-20 shows ANY neck scar I use them in my .32-20's. This device was a temporary test procedure that works so well I still use it! The expander is removed from dies used for forming and taping the case back out with a rod the only inconvenience. I've done 1500 cases with this setup now of which 500 were nickel plated. (All I could get) It works and my .25-20's confirm it!

I've attached pictures of the case centering die pusher for your interest. Simple and does the job!

 

[Bret4207]

I think I followed that. The 280/223 set up is just a "pusher" for the 32WCF case?

 

[Eutectic]

I think I followed that. The 280/223 set up is just a "pusher" for the 32WCF case?

That is correct. A 'temporary' experiment that does such good work I still use it! Tapping the case out with a rod the only disadvantage..... I'll take that for excellent forming.

 

[uncle jimbo]

Got the 218 bee brass from Powder Valley yesterday and RacinYakima was kind enough to let me barrow his Sinclair neck sizing die, so I am going out to the reloading room today and try making 25-20 wcf brass.
I first gave the new 218 brass a quick inspection and then got started.

I took the brass and lubed the case mouths and ran them through the Sinclair sizer with the .22 to true the mouths up. I then turned the spud around to the 6mm sizer shaft and ran them through that way. Except for being larger now they all looked good.

When I ran the 6mm stem into them, there was very minimal resistance.
I then re lubed the case mouths and the outside of the case with lube and ran them through the 25-20 FL die. I went slow with this step. When the expander ball entered the case there was a slight resistance, but again minimal resistance. When the shoulder started to be set back, I could feel the resistance , but it was a smooth resistance, (if that makes sense) and didn't require any hard pushing to set it where it belonged. Again they looked good.

I measured them and they are good. I won't need to trim nor are they noticeably short.

The resized 218 is on the left and the original 25-20 is on the right.
I lost no cases to dents or crushes. I would do this again without any hesitation. The Sinclair neck sizer is a great tool to work with. Thanks to RicinYakima for the use of the Sinclair die.
I now have 200 new 25-20 cases.

 

[Ian]

Nothing wrong with that Uncle Jimbo!

 

[david s]

They look good to go. Half the battle some times is figuring out how to accomplice what needs doing with what you have available to work with.

 

[Bret4207]

Take a look at the expander on your 25-20 set. Sometimes a bit of polishing with simple 4/0 steel wool will fix a lot of "drag" without removing any metal.

 

[uncle jimbo]

I will try that Bret4207. Thanks.