Marlin 1894 44 mag
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
FYI -- if your gun likes fat bullets, I got a 6-cavity mould from a Lee group buy a while back for a plain-based version of the 429640, and as I recall, it drops bullets about .436" (I was hoping for something more along the lines of .432"). If you're interested, I would be willing to sell it.
Rally Hess
Well-Known Member
I just shoot them myself and tend to view the internet with a sceptical eye. I've learned alot from the internet, but you have to learn to seperate the "wheat from the chaff" as the saying goes.
You could make two of those dies for the Star Brad, mine needs one too!!
You could make two of those dies for the Star Brad, mine needs one too!!
Rally, I did make ONE die today. it takes me about 1.5 hours. Makes a nice, round .433 bullet.
The unsized bullets at .434 were odd. They chamber just fine. The front band shows some sizing by my Hornady seater. I'm sure the die was never intended to seat a .434 bullet.
The first 25 were fired to adjust the scope and get some chronongraph data. All 50 rounds were loaded in RP brass, used a CCI LP primer, and 20 gr of 2400 under an NOE HG 503 lubed with MML. I used MML as it was the closest thing to me.
All rounds chambered fine but after a break the second 25 had a few issues with extraction. two cases stuck in the chamber. I also noticed that the first 10 or so had a black ring just below the case mouth. This was right where the lube groove was but the ring was on the outside of the case. Once the gun warmed back up the rings went away. Accuracy on the last 25 was pretty bad, like 6 inches plus at 50 yards.
I don't think .434 is gonna work. I will size some to .433 and see what happens.
I have not cleaned the gun yet to see if it leaded. That happens this evening.
The unsized bullets at .434 were odd. They chamber just fine. The front band shows some sizing by my Hornady seater. I'm sure the die was never intended to seat a .434 bullet.
The first 25 were fired to adjust the scope and get some chronongraph data. All 50 rounds were loaded in RP brass, used a CCI LP primer, and 20 gr of 2400 under an NOE HG 503 lubed with MML. I used MML as it was the closest thing to me.
All rounds chambered fine but after a break the second 25 had a few issues with extraction. two cases stuck in the chamber. I also noticed that the first 10 or so had a black ring just below the case mouth. This was right where the lube groove was but the ring was on the outside of the case. Once the gun warmed back up the rings went away. Accuracy on the last 25 was pretty bad, like 6 inches plus at 50 yards.
I don't think .434 is gonna work. I will size some to .433 and see what happens.
I have not cleaned the gun yet to see if it leaded. That happens this evening.
Ran a couple dry patches and got zero lead. The note shows the top of the lands are a little rough but no lead.
I need to contact Glen about that 640 mould. I have a suspicion that mould is what the rifle needs. My 1894 in 357 shoot poorly with anything other than the 359640.
I need to contact Glen about that 640 mould. I have a suspicion that mould is what the rifle needs. My 1894 in 357 shoot poorly with anything other than the 359640.
Rally Hess
Well-Known Member
Brad,
Sounds like your shooting went about like mine with the 1894 in .44. Mine wouldn't shoot the same place twice. My grandson had taken the scope off during deer season because he shot it a few times and was doing the same thing for him. It was a cheap scope so will be replacing that one soon also.
Also shot my 1894 in .357 today with good results. Mould is NOE 360-180-PB (RD) RG4 brass
, 9 grs. Blue Dot, WSP, sized .358, Bens Red + B.W., 25 yds. Five shots per dot. Ten clicks up from lower left to lower right dots. Top left is to zero with the Solid point. Lower left was with the solid point also. Lower right was with Hollow Point. Upper right was the Dimple Point. I ran out of ammo in this bullet and it was snowing to beat the band, so called it close enough for today.
The lower right, shot to the right was me, not the gun. A snow flake hit me in the eye about the time I pulled the trigger. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. LOL
Sounds like your shooting went about like mine with the 1894 in .44. Mine wouldn't shoot the same place twice. My grandson had taken the scope off during deer season because he shot it a few times and was doing the same thing for him. It was a cheap scope so will be replacing that one soon also.
Also shot my 1894 in .357 today with good results. Mould is NOE 360-180-PB (RD) RG4 brass
, 9 grs. Blue Dot, WSP, sized .358, Bens Red + B.W., 25 yds. Five shots per dot. Ten clicks up from lower left to lower right dots. Top left is to zero with the Solid point. Lower left was with the solid point also. Lower right was with Hollow Point. Upper right was the Dimple Point. I ran out of ammo in this bullet and it was snowing to beat the band, so called it close enough for today.The lower right, shot to the right was me, not the gun. A snow flake hit me in the eye about the time I pulled the trigger. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. LOL
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Missionary
Well-Known Member
Greetings
Several fellers in Indiana use thier's to pop corn crunchers with 300 grainers GC pushed as fast as possible and no shooting past 90 yards maybe 100.
Somewhere past 90 yards the spin is below stable and hits get iffy with long nosed 300 grainers. The WFN hold just those few yards better.
265 grainers will shoot well past 150 yards. No issues with those. The 265-280's seen the upper end for those slow twist. Short FN are the better.
Me I am glad I dumped the .43 mag and went with .41 and 45 Colt. No spin issues.
Mike in Peru
Several fellers in Indiana use thier's to pop corn crunchers with 300 grainers GC pushed as fast as possible and no shooting past 90 yards maybe 100.
Somewhere past 90 yards the spin is below stable and hits get iffy with long nosed 300 grainers. The WFN hold just those few yards better.
265 grainers will shoot well past 150 yards. No issues with those. The 265-280's seen the upper end for those slow twist. Short FN are the better.
Me I am glad I dumped the .43 mag and went with .41 and 45 Colt. No spin issues.
Mike in Peru
I got the Lee 434640 mould from Glen today. Cast up a few. It does indee cast a fat bullet. No problem sizing them to .433.
Now to get some loaded up. I am leaning towards 21.5 gr of H110 to start.
Dan, that mould is on my short list of things to try. Just need to get some cast up.
Now to get some loaded up. I am leaning towards 21.5 gr of H110 to start.
Dan, that mould is on my short list of things to try. Just need to get some cast up.
Missionary
Well-Known Member
Howdy Dan
I am well sold on 265-280 grainers for popping corn crunchers out of a Dan Wesson revolver. I do not try "grill door" shots but most any other angle those bullets will exit at the river bottom ranges the shots come by. 33 Yards is still the longest shot taken. If ILLinois ever decides we are safe to shoot center rifles at deer I will happily plow a some that a way.
Mike in Peru
I am well sold on 265-280 grainers for popping corn crunchers out of a Dan Wesson revolver. I do not try "grill door" shots but most any other angle those bullets will exit at the river bottom ranges the shots come by. 33 Yards is still the longest shot taken. If ILLinois ever decides we are safe to shoot center rifles at deer I will happily plow a some that a way.
Mike in Peru
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
So the Marlin guru says you can't shoot accurately with too fast a twist.........
I am not buying his story, sorry. I have a number of different guns with variations only
in the twist and do not find that "too fast a twist rate" is a real thing, beyond MAYBE
a very slight degradation with cheapo bullets. .223 with 7 inch twist or with 12 inch
seem to group the 55 FMJ BTs about the same, if anything they do better in the fast
twist guns, say 8 or 9 inches in several do well, and my HBAR has 7 and will do well,
although I must admit it shoots the 69 MK into 5/8" with regularity at 100. My one real
M16 bbl is a reasonably good shooter, but nothing to write home about and the slowest
twist of the bunch. Of course, bbl contours are all over the map, although several
skinny bbls in 8 inch twist do very well, too.
So, that is MY experience - very different kind of cartridge, .223 vs .44 Mag, but I do
not buy the "too fast" twist story.
Also have a friend with literally a room full of PPC trophies who has built his own guns
for decades. He swaps out the S&W bbl for a much faster twist and gets better accy
than is possible with stock bbls. .38 Spl, low velocity stuff, std PPC - out to 50 yds.
Brad, -- how do you drill/ream/bore or whatever the inside hole and get final finish
and dimension correct on the sizer die?
Bill
I am not buying his story, sorry. I have a number of different guns with variations only
in the twist and do not find that "too fast a twist rate" is a real thing, beyond MAYBE
a very slight degradation with cheapo bullets. .223 with 7 inch twist or with 12 inch
seem to group the 55 FMJ BTs about the same, if anything they do better in the fast
twist guns, say 8 or 9 inches in several do well, and my HBAR has 7 and will do well,
although I must admit it shoots the 69 MK into 5/8" with regularity at 100. My one real
M16 bbl is a reasonably good shooter, but nothing to write home about and the slowest
twist of the bunch. Of course, bbl contours are all over the map, although several
skinny bbls in 8 inch twist do very well, too.
So, that is MY experience - very different kind of cartridge, .223 vs .44 Mag, but I do
not buy the "too fast" twist story.
Also have a friend with literally a room full of PPC trophies who has built his own guns
for decades. He swaps out the S&W bbl for a much faster twist and gets better accy
than is possible with stock bbls. .38 Spl, low velocity stuff, std PPC - out to 50 yds.
Brad, -- how do you drill/ream/bore or whatever the inside hole and get final finish
and dimension correct on the sizer die?
Bill
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I center drill first. That is followed with a small diameter drill, maybe .2" or so. That is followed by a larger bit, usually a .298 parabolic drill. Buckshot suggested the parabolic bits, the flutes clear chips far better so less pecking is required. Some sizes I have a close reamer, like a .355 and .308. That gets me close enough to finish by polishing with a solid rod, emery, and some oil. For stuff like 44 and 45 I don't have a close to size reamer as those reamers are 45+ bucks apiece. I drill to .020 under sized then use a home ground HSS boring bar to .429 or so. Lots of checking with pin gauges along the way, it sucks to overshoot! Once I get close I finish with split rod, emery, and oil. I find that 400 grit emery does a good job for me.
Once I get some time I will take a photo of the boring tool I use. It ain't fancy but it works. Lots of .003-.005 cuts. Once I get close I may only take .001 per cut or even a spring pass as the tool is long and thin so it flexes a bit. That spring cut can ten remove a bunch more than you think.
For Lee type push thru sizers that is it. A Star die is a bit different. For those I get the final polished diameter very close. I then drill the lube holes. I then finish polishing and this also removes the burr the drill left inside the die. The Perfessor said this was the way to go. If holes are drilled before the polishing the holes tend to wallow out on the inside.
As you can see asking people who know a bit helps a bunch. I asked detailed questions and got excellent, detailed answers. I owe Buckshot and Keith a bunch.
Once I get some time I will take a photo of the boring tool I use. It ain't fancy but it works. Lots of .003-.005 cuts. Once I get close I may only take .001 per cut or even a spring pass as the tool is long and thin so it flexes a bit. That spring cut can ten remove a bunch more than you think.
For Lee type push thru sizers that is it. A Star die is a bit different. For those I get the final polished diameter very close. I then drill the lube holes. I then finish polishing and this also removes the burr the drill left inside the die. The Perfessor said this was the way to go. If holes are drilled before the polishing the holes tend to wallow out on the inside.
As you can see asking people who know a bit helps a bunch. I asked detailed questions and got excellent, detailed answers. I owe Buckshot and Keith a bunch.
Things are looking up! The rifle seems to prefer the 429640 mould I got from Glen. Sized .433 they load fine and the rifle doesn't lead. I do need to modify my seater, it doesn't care for that fat a bullet. I also need to look at a different crimp die, the Redding profile crimp doesn't seem happy with it either. It definitely rubs on the case over the drive bands. I used it to iron out the flare on the case mouth and just barely turn it in. No real roll crimp at all.
Load was Starline brass, CCI LP primers, and 21.5 gr H110.
Target is rotated in photo. The hole low and right is actually high and right as fired. It was the first from a cold barrel. This is 10 shots. The little row is a total of 6, 4 in the long hole.
Dang phone rotated all the photos 90° clockwise.
This was fired right after the previous target. These were not crimped at all. The mouth flare was barely ironed out, I could feel it scrape a bit on chambering.
Is was fired right after the previous 2 targets. Is was same alloy as the others except this was air cooled, the others were water dropped.
All targets fired at 50 yards.
This is a couple of the water dropped bullets recovered from the berm. No doubt the barrel has micro groove rifling!
I see lots of potential for the bullet. I will be loading and shootng more, that is for sure. I will go up a bit in powder charge and play some with hardness. I also need to make a new seating guide for the Hornady seater that will play nice with a fat bullet.
Thanks for the mould Glen. It made the rifle much more fun to shoot. Now I need to size some .431 and try them in the SRH. Bet it likes em too.
Load was Starline brass, CCI LP primers, and 21.5 gr H110.
Target is rotated in photo. The hole low and right is actually high and right as fired. It was the first from a cold barrel. This is 10 shots. The little row is a total of 6, 4 in the long hole.
Dang phone rotated all the photos 90° clockwise.
This was fired right after the previous target. These were not crimped at all. The mouth flare was barely ironed out, I could feel it scrape a bit on chambering.
Is was fired right after the previous 2 targets. Is was same alloy as the others except this was air cooled, the others were water dropped.
All targets fired at 50 yards.
This is a couple of the water dropped bullets recovered from the berm. No doubt the barrel has micro groove rifling!
I see lots of potential for the bullet. I will be loading and shootng more, that is for sure. I will go up a bit in powder charge and play some with hardness. I also need to make a new seating guide for the Hornady seater that will play nice with a fat bullet.
Thanks for the mould Glen. It made the rifle much more fun to shoot. Now I need to size some .431 and try them in the SRH. Bet it likes em too.
