Mauser VZ24 project: 22-250 to 358 Win ...

wquiles

Well-Known Member
Slower, but with the 2x cavity LTB mold I get much lower variation than with the 6x cavity Lee. Here is after sorting the LBT. I kept the 182.7gr through 183.3gr and will use the other ones for dummy rounds:
11333


For the Lee, I got such a large variation, that I got them in 1gr increments:
11334

Of course, some of that variation on the Lee is me, my technique with the ladle, etc., but still, from 200.0gr to 203.9gr variation is not optimal either. I wish the Lee were like a 4x cavity mold instead of 6x - would be easier to be more consistent as I get more experience casting.

Will
 

Ian

Notorious member
With the Lee mould, make sure you aren't grasping all three handles when holding the mould. Some people do that without realizing it and the sprue plate handle will cam open the blocks at the handle end slightly (a few thousandths) and cause a wide dispersion in weights from one end to the other. Paying close attention to handle pressure and making sure there's no trash on the block faces after every pour improves consistency as well.

To further your diagnosis, now that you have the bullets sorted, do some careful measurements of the bullets from each pile and see if you have a diameter discrepancy that coincides with the weights. If your heavy bullets are measuring larger at 90° to the parting line than the lighter bullets, then you know you have an issue with the blocks not mating up completely on some casts, or later in the casting session.
 

wquiles

Well-Known Member
Thanks Ian. Been on a business trip so was not able to reply earlier.

I "do" believe I am grasping all 3x handles to some degree (or not being consistent), so I will update my technique on my next casting session.

Since I have not sized this lot yet, I will check a few with my micrometer to compare the OD as suggested :)
 

Ian

Notorious member
It's a pain to do, but to really get down to the nitty-gritty of quality bullet making (especially for high-velocity accuracy) and nail down those random flyers we have sometimes, it is necessary to both weigh AND measure bullets from at least one casting session to make sure the mould and our technique are up to the task.

A "fat" bullet resulting from trash on the block faces or other reason can have a void and weigh the same as a perfect bullet cast with the blocks perfectly mated, yet the fat bullet can be a flyer if the void is near the base where it collapses when fired (distorting the base) or is near the outside surface and causes imbalance. This anomaly can cause the exclamation "I weighed all these to +/- 1/10 grain and got two flyers and ten, WTH?" Well, there ya go. Generally, +/- a half grain and without measuring will keep you under 1.5 MOA easily, but if you have eight in 3/4" and two flyers making it a 1.5" group, maybe you have two bad bullets. If you are chasing sub-MOA for ten shots, bullet consistency matters a LOT, particularly as we push velocity up.

Lee commercial moulds tend to have some significant cavity variations due to less than perfect manufacturing processes (what do you expect for $40?), but they can also be very well made, it just depends. Paying really close attention to mould temperature throughout the casting session, culling the first 10-15 pours until the blocks and handles reach heat equilibrium, and watching for lead bits on the block faces, inconsistent handle pressure or timing, or anything else that can affect the consistency of one pour to the next and culling any pour which doesn't "feel" right for some reason (whether the bullets LOOK good right out of the mould or not) can help save a lot of headaches after the casting session.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
I don't get anything but 2x moulds for rifle. Lee has some base divits, smears and edges but the LBT has some rounded bases.
As for the PC flyers, IMHO 2 causes. Bore accumulation/purges and 'tails' at the base from standing up.
I found light (subs?) loads will fool you. Powder position of course but lack of noise/recoil is the tricky. Kinda opposite of flinch. Longer time in barrel, I've pulled the trigger/shot done reaction. Did a lot of experimenting with PC in the 336 30/30, unique and 2400, dacron vs none. Flyer every once in a while. Recent test with BLL over PC didn't seem too bad. Propose the wax coats or cleans the bore of junk. Noted the same with 40SW but HiTek doesn't seem to have the same problem. Haven't had any luck with HiTek in 308.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
I intend to experiment with the BLL over PC thing myself at some point, probably when I get back to trying to get consistent sub-MOA groups from PC and determining what in the world is causing those PC flyers. Wax can be a great equalizer when it comes to bore condition. I know Popper has done a lot also with the BLL/PC but until I see the effect of it on smaller groups it's going to be hard to make a call.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I know just loobering up the nose on bore riders can make a huge difference.

I also see guy's still 'greasing' up their jacketed bullets [with various concoctions] the word dieseling means nothing to them, and they claim lowered copper fouling.
many of them have no application method other than dip and shoot.
 

wquiles

Well-Known Member
Well Ian, when you are right, you are right :)

I checked for sizing two random ones from the heaviest batch and found this was the OD:
11408

11409


This was the lightest batch:
11410

11411


And then, since this was so enlightening, I figured: what about the "really" light bullets that I discarded? Probably even smaller. Lets check:
11412


So yes, this was a great exercise - thanks for the lesson. Always something to learn in this awesome forum :)

Will
 

Ian

Notorious member
There you have it, now to sort out why that was happening. Inspect the mould blocks and see if they appear to be closing properly or not, a speck of sprue or vent line trash could get stuck near one end and cause fat/elliptical bullets at one end of the mould for every pour afterwards.

That very last bullet is a lot more frosty than the others and indicates it was cast from a hotter mould. Just by looking you can tell it will be smaller and lighter. This sheen is one of the things you look for when casting for consistent weight; the bullet's surface appearance is an indicator of mould temperature and mould temperature affects size and weight as well as sharpness of the bullet's features. If your timing, technique, and alloy temperature is consistent when casting, your bullets will all look the same as they cool and will likely be of much more consistent weight/size.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
this also harks back to the thread tale of 3 bullets.

look at the appearance of the three you showed there.
2 of them are close enough to be in the same eyeball batch of bullets, but you'd notice them when you put them through the size die.
 

wquiles

Well-Known Member
Went to the range today testing some of Berry's 150gr plated on the 300blk pistol - getting close to a low-recoil/but/cycling the action for my daughter :)

But I also took the Mauser, using the Lee 200GC PC cast bullet, and besides the one sub-sonic load, this time tried some mid-range speeds with Unique and Trailboss. I tested the subsonic for speed with the Lab Radar (nor for grouping) and got 1069 fps - I need to drop a little to get closer to 1020-30fps. Then tried Trailboss and Unique at 50 years for grouping. Trailboss was not great at 50 yards, so I then moved to Unique, with my hopes down given the lackluster initial 10 rounds with Trailboss. I had Unique at 12, 13, and 14 gr, hoping to identify a node to then fine tune.

So I started with Unique 12gr:
- First shot
- Second shot, touching the first one. Had to look twice over the scope to be sure.
- 3rd shot, again, touching the first two. This was getting interesting :)
- 4rd shot, and once again, touching the first 3. Now I am getting a little nervous as those 4x just look like one "big" hole through the scope.
- 5th shot - landed to the left and on top of the initial 4x holes, making the overall group significantly larger, but still very nice. Measured with calipers when I got home, minus bullet dia equals a .370" group for 5x shots at 50yards :)
20191226_173114.jpg


Tried the second 5x (I loaded 10x for each weight charge). Not quite as impressive, but still not bad - .480" group for 5x shots at 50yards :)
20191226_173357.jpg

If you look at those two groups above, the width is pretty consistent, so perhaps the vertical dispersion is just me. Something to work on/improve. But the potential that I found a node at this speed is significant. I didn't chrono this load, but per QuickLoad it should be at about 1440 fps or so. Will need to verify with the LabRadar next time.


Shot the 13 and 14 gr, but nothing quite as small - closer to the .75" to 1" mark.
20191226)175213.jpg



So far this rifle has been working really well for me. I am definitely happy with the conversion from JES ;)

Will
 
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Spindrift

Well-Known Member
Very good shooting and results!
I’ve got a feeling the rifle will see more use in this configuration, than the original 22-250 :)
Congratulations, Will!
 

wquiles

Well-Known Member
Now that I have my platform for neck sizing I am going to try and replicate the really nice group at 50yards with 12.0 gr Unique and the Lee 200gr bullet. I am using the "grade A" neck-sized brass and the "grade B", the ones with imperfections:
IMAG0096.jpg



Also I got the mauser on the adjustable stock that I bought for it a long time ago - I had to enlarge the barrel channel area right in front of the receiver:
IMAG0095.jpg



This stock also takes a custom external magazine:
IMAG0092.jpg



Although of course the mag COL capacity is enormous compared to the short 358 Win rounds:
IMAG0094.jpg


IMAG0093.jpg



But so far with these 3x dummy rounds, the cycling is 100% perfect so far. Hope to go to the range soon to try out :)

Will