Mold for a worn 308

Ian

Well-Known Member
#41
It all depends on the throat. I'd start with a pound cast to see what is really there to work with. Likely, if yours is worn and large, see post #15. You could also make the NOE 30 Hunter work, or the MP 30-sil (currently only available for purchase with unicorn tonsils, or get on the un-published group buy over on sixguns and wait another year or two like the rest of us), or maybe the MP 30-hunter if you can find one of those.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
#42
I'm jumping in a little late on this post and I see you are having success so keep going. Have you thought about the SAECO 315, or copy of it, which is a tapered Loverin design? Makes a good fit in my .30's with worn throats. One of my really good shooters. Maybe the bullet is a bit long for a .308, not sure.

From my point of view not a good hunting nose design, but the molds can be hollowpointed.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
#43
I will strike the 041 off the list of stuff I have been looking around in my slowly transitioning pile of stuff to send you.

I have tried the 041 some in a number of 0-6 rifles starting with the 1917 I bought it for.
after running it around I ended up shooting the leftovers in my 03A3 when I got it just to fire form some cases, that's the only load/bullet that rifle has seen since.
so I wouldn't be too disappointed if it didn't work and I wouldn't be too surprised if it did.

the way the RD is going right now, I would switch out powders and move along trying to get up near 1900 fps or so.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#44
Is the 315 suitable for deer?
The RD mold I have is plain based since it was ordered for practice loads for my grade school aged Grandson in his M336 Youth. I have run it PC'd to 1740 fps, 28.5 H4895 w/ dacron filler in my 308 with pretty decent results.
This afternoon I tried 3 loads with the old 31141 bullets at 100 yards. I opened up the seating stem until when chambered, the rifling was just touching the front band and was getting very light engraving on the bore riding secton. What was encouraging was the BLL was wiped off the front band, not scraping the lead, but it did wipe off the Bll. Loaded 3 like this then opened it up another .04 so that I had some jamb into the lands with the front band. This load was 25 gr. Varget. Started with the longer loads and got two groups, 1 1/4" and a nice equalateral triangle of 3/4". Tried the shorter 3 rounds and got two close and one several inches away. Likely a bad bullet but could of been poor entry into the bore. This was a very light load, guessing 14-1500 fps??
Next was the above mentioned H4895 but at 29 grains. Only had 5 loaded at the longer length and it put 4 into 1 1/4", but it was two groups of two close shots to total the 1 1/4". The fith shot opened it up to 2". again likely a bullet that should of been culled.
the 3rd load was 25-4198 at the longer length. This one looked more like a shotgun so I'll bypass it in the future.
I'll likely play a bit with more powder in the Varget load and load length with both it and H4895. That H4895 group with two shot close and another two close but 1 1/4 away would have me changing seating depth with jacketed bullets. I'm not sure cast works the same way, but one way to find out.

Edit, I've been meaning to ask, this barrel has 4 wide grooves and 4 narrow lands. Seems like I've read that this wasn't too favorable for cast shooting. Just more internet rumors?
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
#45
if those lands are fairly tall the gun will do pretty well actually.
when you don't have a good amount of rifling engagement your fighting stripping, and an alloy change is generally in order.
you can also help yourself by slowing down the launch speed,,, getting as much bullet in the rifling before pushing it hard.
a buffering [not a filler] agent will also help protect the bottom of the bullet and soften the blow from the base.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#46
Windy damp day so I fired up the lead pot and built a proper pound cast for the 308.
The ball seat is tapered, .313 just in front of the case mouth, .311 about .140 futher out. First traces of the rifling show up at about .120 from the case mouth. Grooves measures .3105 at this end. The lands don't show on a seperate tumble lubed 311041 bullet that is .3015 -.302 just ahead of the front band though the front band is engraved full length at the seating depth I'm trying. Insert the same cartridge into the muzzle and get resistance about .150 from the front band. push it in till contact with the front band and it shows full and even contact for that .150 length. Since this is a tumble lubed bullet, the contact shows up pretty plainly.
A Powder Coated Ranch Dog SC311-165RF seated so the front of the front driving band is about .15 out of the case gives some resistance on chambering as it engraves the front band, but there is no scuffing on the bullet ahead of the band. That section is .305 after PC.
Since this is a M98 length action, I have plenty of magazine length to work with. Not sure how far out I would have to go to find contact with the lands on the bore rider portion of the bullet. I am getting full engraving with the front band of both bullets though.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
#47
I think your gonna end up looking at something like the 315 saeco to get close to filling this throat.
the RD is working because of the design features I outlined earlier.
as far as a bore rider goes an older 314299 that makes 313 or so on the body and 304 on the nose is your best hope for a bore ride type bullet.
I personally wouldn't mess with a bore ride design and go for as much drive band length as I could possibly fit in there.

I'm still working on finding 30 cal this and that, and will send you some stuff once I get it all dug out as I shift things around more and more.
I have a very oversized loverign type design that weighs 220+grs. that me and Tommy put together and had Tom make for the Argie type throats.
I haven't done anything more than put together some rough samples and I think I might have some completed ones he sent me here somewhere when he got the first mold cut.
it might be too big, but it will give you an idea of what is available.
 
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Ole_270

Active Member
#48
Thanks fiver, I'm just kicking things around as I get an idea.
That 315 mold has a meplat that is nearly as large as the 31141 mold I used to have. What would your opinion of the 315 as a deer load be? I took several deer with the 31141 in a 30-30 that also went down the road. I've been shooting a few leftovers from that project with some success in the 308. These were water dropped and LLA tumbled. 100 yard groups under 1.5" are pretty common, some are close to 1", just have some flyers to 2" that make me think I'm close, but not there yet. None were weighed or too closely inspected for flaws in those days. I've been seating to engrave the full length of the front band, maybe varying that depth will help with the flyers. I've thought a time or two that a new 311041 from NOE or Accurate and PC it for nose diameter might do the trick.
Not really hung up on the bore rider, just what I've got to work with at the moment.
I've got some of the RD SC311-165RF loaded with 29gr 4320 to try if this wind ever lets up, maybe the PC and subsiquent water drop out of the oven will help make up for the plain base. File the coating off the nose and it checks around 20-21 Bhn on my Cabin Tree tester. 1.43 Sn, 2.92 Sb alloy tested by BNE
About the only slower powders I have on hand are H4350, H4831sc, a little RL-22 and some MagPro. I haven't tried them since I always heard the slow powders could be trouble if downloaded too far. The fast and midrange powders are what I stock the most of. Benchmark, TAC, 4198, H4898, one can of IMR 4895, Big Game, RL-15. Varget, Norma 202. Probably left out a couple. Plus my shotgun powders. Solo 1000, International Clays, Universal Clays, Longshot, 800X. Probably a good thing the wife hasn't seen the inventory in a few years.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
#49
the 315 will easily do the job.
you have about 100 options to explore, especially when mixing in the powder coating.
just running the loads up to 30 or 31grs will show you some stuff, changing to straight air cooled ww's under the P/C will also give you a good direction to follow.
you just have to ferret out the right trail to take one step at a time.
getting something that chambers and takes the rifling properly is the very first one.
when I say properly that doesn't automatically mean filling every single bit of air gap in the throat.
much of it has to do with getting the bullet into the barrel without moving too much lead to the rear of the bullet, and in getting it in there straight.

getting past using a middle speed powder and going slower and slower can help.
how slow?
well,,, much too slow works, but about 2 steps slower than you'd think, is quite often just about the right place to step off into then working back towards 'normal' will show you a lot too.
I don't know if you have read my XCB thread but you'll see what powders I was/am using in the 308 and the XCB case, and see the ones I started really liking.
many of them will work at lower velocity's if you trick them a little with a filler, others just work down to certain points then need the filler or another swap to a faster speed.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#50
In loking for that thread(havn't found it yet), I see you talking about meplat size vs velocity. What velocity would you hope to tun the #315 for deer at 100 yards and under? Thinking it would be alot easier to get to teh 18-1900 fps area than 2k plus in this rifle.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#51
If you want stupid easy, powder coat that 315 and run it up to 2400 fps with IMR 3031, probably will get 2 moa right off, maybe better.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
#52
1900 is more than proven to take deer out to 100+ yards.
you'll be relying on the bullet creating 2 holes in the animal and the flat nose tearing at and pushing on the internals creating a permanent wound channel in between the two holes.
you'll see bruising effects in the lungs about a 50 cent piece in diameter from the pushing and shoving of the flesh as the bullet passes through.
60% meplat is enough to create straight line penetration and the internal wounding without bruising [blood shot meat] at the entrance/exit wounds.
the exit hole will be quite a bit larger than the entrance just from the fact it pushes outward on the skin stretching it much further than the entrance side.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#53
Thanks guys for putting up with the seemingly never ending questions. I started casting in the mid '70s for a 3 screw Blackhawk 357 and about 10 years later for an old family heirloom Marlin '94 25-20. Both were instant winners and I never had to learn the more detailed techniques. The last two years or so I started with a JES rebored M336 in 38-55 that has been easier yet. Seems to make bugholes with about anything I try.
Another question. I'm currently seating about .06-.08 into the rifling, should I go longer trying to make contact with the groove diameter or is alignment with the lands doing enough? With the 311041, the gas check is about half way into the neck/shoulder junction. There is some resistance to chambering but it's faily easy. I can extract the loaded round without pulling the bullet.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
#54
with anything that is a bore rider I want as much nose contact as possible.
the real long ones such as the rcbs silhouette series relies on nearly 100% of the nose engaging the rifling.
they help align the bullet better and start the rotation.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#55
Getting a bit frustrated here. Tried the Ranch Dog SC311-165rf powder coated, plain based, water dropped from the PC oven over 28.5 H4895 at 100 today. Checked a couple bullets by filing off the pc on the nose and my cabin tree tester showed 22 Bhn. Alloy was 1.43%Sn, 2.92%Sb. No leading, no sign of stripping in the lands. first couple groups were with the oal at 2.5, rifling engraving the whole length of the first band, minimal effort to chamber. Not good, patterns more than groups. Opened the seating stem for 2.57" oal, engraving showing clear through the front two bands, heavy scuffing on half the circumference of the front band, none on the other side. Heavy bolt throw to close. This throat must be really worn bad since the grooves only hit half way around. Went ahead and tried a 3 shot group. Holy cow, not bad.


Tried another group, not as good, but 1 3/4 isn't too bad, mostly horizontal. Went back and shot the last two rounds at the same target and they went 2" left of the first 3!
This rifle has a very light contour barrel, seems pretty touchy about bench technique and holding pressure, but I've not had this much trouble getting jacketed loads to group consistantly. I've got several bullets that will average MOA or so.
The barrel tapers down from the chamber to .690" about 4" ahead of the front ring, swells out to a larger donut for the rear sight dovetail, immediatly drops to .590 and then tapers to .575 at the muzzle.

Overall, a nice light, easy handling hunting rifle. I've thought a few times about replacing that worn barrel, but as long as it keeps shooting 150 and 165 Hornady Interlocks and 165 Partitions like it does, it won't happen.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#57
Scuffing only halfway around the front band means either the chamber is wongo....or the ammo. If you're using a standard sizing die, then blowing up the neck again with a cst bullet expanding die, the neck is likely stretching more on one side or being pulled off center, placing the bullet off-center from the case body and bore.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#58
Tried 31 gr the other day, but don't remember now if it was the RD or the 311041. Might be a while before I get to it, pheasant season opens this weekend. My main holiday all year!
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#59
Ian, that is very posible. Still using the thick Federal cases, an older set of RCBS dies, and a NOE expander in a Lee Universal flaring die. I'm not crimping, haven't moved the seating die body down from where it set for jacketed loads, just move the seating stem as needed. Probably won't get back to this project till towards Christmas. Pheasant season opens this weekend, then Thanksgiving, then Deer season.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
#60
Forgot to add, in that picture of the rifle, there is a scrape under the far side of that oak tree. About 60 yards North of my back door. A small gum tree about 10 yards in front of and to the left of the bench has been about destroyed by bucks rubbing on it. The other day I had a pair of fawns in that clover/wheat patch the other side of the oak that just looked at me and went back to eating when I started shooting some of these loads. More than once I've had to quit shooting at a gong in the creek to the south while some does wandered by. Kind of like this place.