Mold Temp - Pot/Alloy temp

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Here's something that may help out those considering casting their own and those new to casting. There is no shortage of "internet wisdom" that suggests to get good mold fill-out to simply crank up the heat, get the alloy in the pot as hot as you can. This is very poor advice on a couple of counts.

First, if your using an alloy that has tin (Sn) in it by cranking up the heat you are defeating the main purpose of having Sn in the alloy. Tin will reduce the surface tension of the alloy going into the mold enabling good fill-out of the molds details, past about 750 degrees Sn looses much of it's ability to do this plus the Sn itself oxidizes much faster on the surface of the melt at the higher temps.

Next and probably even more important is that with the alloy temp much hotter than needed you need to wait longer and longer between pours for the alloy inside the mold to cool enough to open the mold and drop the bullets as your mold gets hotter and hotter. You also need to wait longer for the sprue puddle to freeze to open the sprue plate. All this extra and un-needed waiting slows down the casting and reduces the amount of bullets that can be produced in a casting session.

Good advice for new casters is to run the alloy temp at about 100 degrees over full liquidus temp of the alloy your using. For most common bullet alloys this will be around 700 degrees. If your casting with pure Lead (Pb) for muzzle loaders about 750 degrees is plenty of heat and will also help with limiting oxidation of the Pb.

As a new caster one of the first things you'll learn is that for quality well filled out bullets mold temp is critical. You'll never get good fill-out or wrinkle free bullets with a mold that is too cool. Likewise a mold that is too hot will be detrimental to casting quality bullets. Never pause between mold fills to admire your new creations, your mold is cooling off. Plenty of time to admire them when your finished casting.

Most molds will cast well at around 400 degrees, a temp that is below the solidus temp of the alloy but hot enough to allow good fill-out. That temp will vary depending on the size of the mold blocks and the mold material and the size of the cavities of the bullets you are casting but the mold temp will be in this range.

Logic will tell you that cranking up the heat is not the logical answer to well filled out bullets. If your pot temp is 700 degrees and a mold temp of about 400 degrees will cast well your alloy is 300 degrees hotter than needed mold temp. That 300 degree difference is more than enough to get and keep your mold at a good casting temp.

For small bullets such as 22's in large blocks (comparative to cavity size) or hollow point bullets I splurge with the heat and "crank it up" to 720 - 725 degrees. Any hotter isn't needed, isn't good for the alloy and will slow down your casting. For mold temp don't look at it as pouring lead into the mold, look at as pouring heat. The larger the bullet your casting and the smaller the mold blocks the faster the mold heats. In addition aluminum molds cool far faster between pours than either iron or brass molds but even with aluminum you don't need a hotter pot temp, you just need to keep casting at a steady pace.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Tempo is the key, not hotter pot temp.
I will admit I probably cast a bit hotter than needed but that is at 740 degrees. I need to see if I can cut back to 700 and get good results. If so then there isn't a downside.

Only time I ran my pot full tilt was when using pure for ML projectiles. I didn't have anything that was going to oxidize out, ther than lead, so I didn't care.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Excellent, Rick, I vote that your post gets copied the "tips/tricks" section for reference.

Understanding FIRST that alloy temperature and mould temperature are two completely different things goes a long way toward learning how to cast good bullets. Each alloy has it's own temperature needs that indepentently determine the "best" operating pot temperature range, and each mould it an individual requiring different pour techniques, cadence and timing of each operation in the casting sequence, sprue puddle size, etc. to get the right amount of heat in the right places at the right time for the best results.

Ambient conditions like air temperature, humidity, drafts, phase of the moon (kidding!) all affect how things turn out. Knowing WHAT to carefully and deliberately adjust through experimentation eventually shortens the learning curve.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Alright, what signs do you guys look for to determine if the mould is getting too hot or too cold?

I have been looking mostly at bullet color on droppng from the mould. Some moulds with very square, deep grooves are easy to tell too as bullets will fracture on the base band if dropped too hot. I am bothered with rounded bands at times from excessive heat but that is far harder to spot at the time of casting.

I am quite certain that there isn't a single tempo or timing that works for all moulds.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Sprue freeze time and of course the sheen of the bullets if air cooling. If water-quenching from the mould, I drop one out of ever 10-15 on a towel to inspect.

There isn't a universal tempo, but I have a technique that's pretty universal for any situation. Set the pot to 700-725, preheat the mould to 400, and get to casting at a rate of 3-4 pours per minute. Adjust mould temperature via overall cadence, adjust sprue plate temperature based on sprue puddle size, adjust rate of fill (bottom pour) to find the sweet spot between trapping voids in the base and having rounded bases/base bands. If the alloy is unknown, find the exact full-liquidus point of the metal, then add 100 degrees like Rick suggested and lock in the pot temperature setting there unless using near-pure lead, then I usually go about 750-800F.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
The purpose of the post was to ease the learning curve for brand new casters. In trying to accomplish this I avoided getting over overly complicated and/or scientific about what is really pretty basic bullet casting. Run your pot at about 700 degrees, preferably pre-heat your mold on a hot plate or cast about a dozen mold fills quickly to get your mold up to a good casting temp. Just where a new caster needs to be and bullets will start looking good very quickly.

As bullet casters we don't need to be metallurgists and we don't need a degree in several different sciences but some of the basics (such as mold/pot temps) can go a long way towards shortening the learning curve and getting the new caster dropping nice bullets. One of the problems as I see it for new casters on a forum like this one is the old salts of casting (including myself) get well beyond basic casting very quickly, fine for them but not needed for new casters that just want to get started on the right foot. The more complicated we make it sound the less likely a prospective caster will even start or a new caster will stick with it. Think back when you were casting your very first bullets, how much head scratching would it have saved you to have someone explaining the basics of pot/alloy mold temp & start there?

An exact liquidus temperature is nearly impossible to determine with the equipment we have available as bullet casters. It depends entirely on the exact percentages of metals in your alloy. There are two different terms regarding melting your alloy. Melting temp and full liquidus temp. Melting temp is easy for anybody to determine, it's when your alloy starts to melt. Full liquidus temp is where all of the metals in your alloy are fully liquid with no crystal formations such as antimony (Sb). That's why I use 700 degrees, it's at least 100 degrees over the "melting temp" of common bullet alloys and well under 750 degrees, I know the alloy at 700 degrees is at full liquidus temp after a good fluxing even with variations in Sb/Sn percentages. Simple basics for getting the new caster making good bullets while avoiding some of the pitfalls all new casters encounter. Time to make bullets.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Yes, it is easy to get lost in the details.

Sometimes we forget that for centuries bullets were cast with a pot over a fire. Simple moulds too.

Thanks for the reminder of the basics.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Do either of you recommend a casting thermometers for beginners? Worth the investment? Looking back I personally think so and wouldn't be without at least two of them now, but I cast without one using only a stainless-steel bean pot, propane burner, and an open ladle for over 15 years and put many, many thousands of bullets downrange that way.

The full-liquidus point is a cinch to find with a thermometer, just check the temperature of the slush point (it will be constant until the last bit melts due to the phase plateau) and call it good. Fully liquid is one degree hotter than the temperature anywhere within the slush window. If a person determines that, adds 100-150F to that reading and sets their pot to hold the alloy there, then focuses on mould handling and forgets about messing with alloy temperature any further, wouldn't it eliminate half the variables that can overwhelm a newbie? Maybe it depends on the personality of the individual and whether they approach new things with a technical or a practical mindset.
 

Josh

Well-Known Member
When starting down the casting hobby I wish I had a thermometer. I didn't know at the time but looking back if I had one it would have saved a lot of guess work.

For me I ran molds hot in the beginning, then as I learned more and got comfortable with the process I started to cool down the mold. Running one hot isn't advisable but it doesn't hurt much either.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Yeah I recommend a thermometer for new casters, it can show them a lot about what's really going on. Is it mandatory? No but then neither is a an electric pot but it sure makes things easier.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
The full-liquidus point is a cinch to find with a thermometer, just check the temperature of the slush point (it will be constant until the last bit melts due to the phase plateau) and call it good. Fully liquid is one degree hotter than the temperature anywhere within the slush window.

Not necessarily, just because you can stir it at that point doesn't mean there are no crystalline structures of antimony within the alloy, if there are it's not at full liquidus temp.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I cast for over 25 years with no thermometer. It was handy to see how close to actual temp my guesstimate was. I'm was casting cooler than I thought, not warmer.

In the end all the tools in the world won't help if you don't learn to pay attention to what matters. The bullets, as they drop from the mould, tell the story. Wrinkles and rounded bands are generally a cold mould. Heavy frosting and rounded bands are too hot a mould.

Until I got a PID I tended to set my pot at a temp and use that temp for all casting. No regard was given to alloy selection, it all was run at the one temp. Somehow it always worked.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
That is an interesting link. Your right that it's not critical info for brand new casters, if they keep their pot temp at 700 degrees and get their mold up to a good casting temp they will be dropping good bullets quickly. The biggest concern for new casters is the mold temp, as the mold approaches a good casting temp the quality and appearance of their bullets will greatly improve. Once there continued casting and experience will make it much easier to understand what they are observing.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Biggest is getting the new guys to understand that mould temp is related more to casting tempo than it is melt temp. Increasing pot temp won't eliminate cold mould wrinkles but casting faster will.
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
I just recently got my first thermometer. I was casting hotter than I had thought. One way I can tell things are getting too hot is after the sprue freezes, and I give a three count, sometimes I am pulling a "plug" out of the center of the base of the bullet.
 
3

358156hp

Guest
If all else is working correctly, and you're just experiencing frosting at the base, you can touch the solidified sprue to a damp cotton cloth to speed things up a bit. If you're experiencing a lot of frosting over the bullet, it might be time to go get a glass of lemonade and let things cool a mite.
 

Cherokee

Medina, Ohio
For over 40 years I never had a thermometer, went by how the bullets looked from the mold. When I got one, it told me I was casting great bullets at 450* from my Lee 20#. WOW... Well, it lied and continued to lie. Now I'm back to watching the bullets from the mold - but now I'm using RCBS Pro-melts @ 725*. Just my .02 - I think mold pre-heating is more important.
 
3

358156hp

Guest
I still remember watching the sprues solidify, and counting the number of color changes before breaking the sprue. I received varying advice on the number of color changes to look for. One person told me five, others told me three. I never did see more than three in all the years I looked. I finally quit watching. I think even Veral Smith recommended counting sprue changes before cutting the sprue in his book. I need to look that up again.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
All this shows that many different methods can be used to get good bullets, it is all about finding what works for YOU. There is not magic method.

I tend to cut spruces early then Wait a few seconds to let the bullet harden a bit before dumping the bullet.