More 44 mag HP

[James W. Miner]

My advise is to do a necropsy on every deer to see what your boolit did. If you make a good hit and can't find blood on the ground and lose a deer, go back to the drawing board. You might have way too much expansion too fast.
There is no such thing as "energy dump", get over it. Make your bullet/boolit work.
Deer do not have fat over the ribs, they have it in areas like over the rump and it is like candle wax, it does not flow to plug a hole. The reason you will get no blood from a hole is you mashed tissue that will seal.
Why does a sharp arrow work? Cut yourself shaving and see why.
I have over 250 archery kills and found a stronger bow with a very heavy arrow is best. 6" of hard ground after the arrow goes through a deer is best. Stop an arrow inside is a lost deer or a long tracking job.
I have killed healthy deer in gun season with healed in arrows, 6" of shaft with sharp broad heads in the chest. Two of three where I almost cut myself gutting. I have a fear when I open a deer now. I gave a deer to a friend that found the third. High speed bows with light arrows that can not penetrate.
Did I ever tell you deer are easy to kill? I do not use a keyboard to hunt.

 

[45 2.1]

James W. Miner wrote this: [Quote}
Deer do not have fat over the ribs, they have it in areas like over the rump and it is like candle wax, it does not flow to plug a hole. The reason you will get no blood from a hole is you mashed tissue that will seal.

I can assure you Jim, corn fed Illinois deer do have fat on the ribs. It isn't like candle wax either, you can squish it between your fingers. We have big fat good tasting deer here. I have to cut a lot off the ribs to have a decent set of ribs to bake. If yours don't I feel sorry for you.

 

[James W. Miner]

Our deer are full of corn too but ribs just have fat in them, not over. Ribs are a chore to cook, need to boil off fat first and there is not much meat left. They are really good but the amount of meat is sad.
Skin a deer and there is no soft fat outside of ribs. Ohio, MI, PA and WV deer have been the same.

 

[Brad]

We get it guys. Put a hole thru the lungs of a deer and they die.
Arguing semantics may be fun to some but it does nothing productive. Neither way is right or wrong, just different. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[KHornet]

As it has always been, proper shot placement will always be the key to success.

 

[James W. Miner]

Not entirely true. Seen heart shot deer make over 100 yards with no blood trail. Fastest kills ever have two holes.
Energy is needed to disrupt organs and you can't get away from it. The most deadly thing ever is a good broad head but you still need two holes. There is no such thing as energy wasted after a pass through as long as the bullet did the work. The worst thing you can say is a .45 is bigger then a .44!
I hate ME figures because a solid bullet can have more then a SP but will lose every deer shot. yes I hate ME junk but energy placed with a proper bullet/boolit is best.
Unless you break bones or spines every shot, You do not match 98% of deer hunters. Hold a revolver off hand at 100 yards + and tell me SHOT PLACEMENT! You are funny.
I have a friend that will poke the heart from a cardboard deer every shot but can NOT hit a real deer, I find a hole in a tree 10 yards from where the deer was. Most hunters are there, point the gun and the bullet is steered by GPS. I hear six or more shots at a time and know the deer is safe.
I bet I could put a gallon jug of water at 100 and most that say "placement" will never hit it. NO, you will get no BR, sticks, knees or prone. Common things carried into the field for deer hunting so when you see a deer you have an hour to set up. Hunt from a house on stilts with a rest and tell the stalker he needs "placement". Damn, do you know how small a deer is at 100 without your big scope? How small with a revolver?
"Placement" has no place for a normal hunter. none can do it and a neck or spine shot will be a mistake from where aimed.
The "expert" has one or two deer. When you get to over my 550 deer kills, maybe we can talk. I have to defer to the experts.

 

[Brad]

Placement is putting a bullet in the vitals, not the ability to actually do so.
Two different topics.
I always want a bullet thru the heart/lungs on a deer, clear thru. My ability to actually put the bullet there isn't bullet placement, it is marksmanship.

 

[James W. Miner]

I sure do agree with that, no matter what placement is what counts.
My experience with a boolet too hard has had sad results with several deer lost with double lung hits. Since the .44 and .475 worked so well with hard I listened to all and made my 45-70 boolit and .500 JRH boolets from the same alloy. The 45-70 from my revolver was too fast at 1630 fps, poked holes and I lost 2 deer and those I found went 200 yards or much more. A clean hole through both lungs with pink lungs. The 440 gr from the JRH did the same but distance run was reduced to 100-120 yards.
I made a mistake using a softer 420 gr HP from the 45-70 and blew an entire shoulder to mush and bloodshot head to tail.
I made half the nose soft for the JRH and deer drop so fast I don't even see it. That will be what I do for the 45-70.
Not only is accuracy needed but so is boolit performance. I was in the trap of a .45 is larger then an expanded 06 bullet, well it does not work that way.
But I stand by what I said about average revolver hunters. Use a 4" or 5" barrel with open sights off hand and place a bullet at 75 to 100 yards just right and you are NOT average. The truth is most hunters can't PLACE a bullet at 100 with a rifle.
Hunters here can't at 40 to 50 so they buy magnum rifles thinking it will go around their shooting but they lose more deer then any archer on earth. I can't convince them to get a 30-30.
A factor creeps in with the best, BUCK FEVER! I have friends that poke the center out but will never, ever hit a deer. One guy shot at a doe with his SRH and I asked where she was. he said "right there" but I found a boolit hole in a tree 10 yards from that spot, 10 yard shot besides. One morning he shot twice and walked to my stand. He said "did you see it?" I said "what" He told me he hit it twice but another friend that could see him said the deer just walked into the woods, unconcerned. It takes many, many kills and many, many years to rid yourself of a pounding heart and forgetting how to shoot.
Brad you might be one with control so I do not doubt you. I will not argue the point if you understand what we see in the field.
I do not doubt how any of you shoot either. Those with no interest to get better do not go to sites. Those new guys that do are smarter then average so they need us. An answer can be wrong so don't jump on me. I just shot revolver deer 181 and have well over 550 kills. Maybe more, lost count. The test subject is a live animal, not a jug of water or paper or sand or anything else.
You need to admit most revolver shooters are tickled with a 2" to 4" group at 25 yards so they will be in the zone at 50 and 100, not so. See how silly a 4" group from a rest at 25 will be at 100 off hand?
Most here do not know me but my hunting loads from revolvers must be 1" or well under at 50 yards but I have hundreds of groups under 1/2" at 100. Some Rugers will do 1/2" at 50 and the BFR's are better. Those are rested, now add in off hand and buck fever. To kill deer at 100 off hand, you need 6" or less for groups. This is a 3/4" 3 shot group at 100 yards a few years ago. Off hand. No, I can't do it now being a month away from 78 with shakes.
The worst thing I can do is ask for your off hand shots at 100 yards. Asking for proof has tossed me from so many sites it is crazy.

 

[James W. Miner]

Brad is still correct with all the way through, yet it is more then a hole. Some boolits are like a field point through a deer. Does anyone hunt with field points? Those in tune use a blunt. Yeah, flat nose with most bows today that can't make 50# of energy. Dang the hole is larger! Happy trails start with tracking a deer all night with a hole. Crows and buzzards get fat.

 

[KHornet]

James, Tis good to have the realities of a few of us old timers!

 

[James W. Miner]

Takes time and a lot of work. I just will not count the mistakes I have made. Without mistakes you learn nothing--Whats the definition of insanity?
I gave up reading long ago, dropped any gun rags and most hunting rags except field and Stream because I have found many great recipes in it.
The Rifleman is stupid today, I need the $4000 scope or I can't shoot and need $5000 binos or I can't see. They have left the average guy. Handloader is junk too.
The likes of Elmer and Ken Waters will never be seen again.
Hunting articles suck, some lucky guy shoots a big buck and all of a sudden he is the expert, I don't like trophy hunters anyway, they waste a lot of meat. Then make an excuse to shoot a doe, saying she was "dry." A thing I have never seen let alone tell when she is in the field, the jerk must have run out to milk her.
A doe is much more wary then a buck and is still a trophy. Good eating trumps antlers on the wall.

 

[freebullet]

I've never seen a deer stand up after being shot with a 270 & butter won't even make antlers taste good. What are we talking about?

 

[James W. Miner]

Correct about a 270, I loved the gun. My friend always came here with one and always got his deer but he complained about losing meat since he cuts his own like I do. Another is the 6.5 Swede, super deer rifle.
I gave my friend my SBH, .44 mag this doe season and he made a perfect heart shot after I worked with his shooting. You have no idea how happy I was.
Most do not know how lethal a revolver is and how fast you can lose a deer or destroy one with just a tiny change. It is hard to explain to not search for max velocities or expansion. As you go smaller, .357, etc or larger, things change much faster so more work needs done. It has not proven easy. Each caliber has a window where there are no leaks. It is up to the hunter to see what is best. Do not fear a change if one is needed.
If I can shorten the learning curve from what I have done wrong, I can't ask for more.
Get a .44 mag right and you have the best there is. Sad that the only way you know is with enough animals to make decisions.
Before I could shoot deer with revolvers I shot varmints, water jugs and everything I could and also thought WOW, what would that do to deer? I was wrong most of the time.
There is always someone that says I shot a deer with such and such bullet at such and such velocity and it worked, How about 181 revolver deer? I hate failure because the wonderful animal does not deserve less.
Hunting all over and I have found hundreds and hundreds of rotten deer, lost with rifles. I am the only one here that shoots a revolver. or now a friend or two.
I am in a development where I signed a paper that says no shooting or hunting but I ignored it and made my range. All of us on this side shoot and hunt. The other side has liberal Demoncrats. But I look for morals over there and find dead deer every spring that had to come from my side, a mile at least.
It always brings me back to the guy in PA that I helped drag out a tiny buck. He had a 30-06 and shot, dropped the little thing. He got up and ran. The guy tracked in the snow and shot again and again until shot 6 kept it down. My hand covered all six shots on the chest. 180 gr Silver tips, made for moose.
Then a jerk shot a doe in Ohio buck season with a 12 GA. Tracked in the snow until he hit her 11 times. Nothing but a wet rag left. He tried to get the farmer to hang it in a shed. Farmer said "NO." The jerk snuck about 10# of meat home.
Go make your soft, massive HP's, hunt and tell what you did with ONE deer.