More 44 mag HP

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
They can bring it. I have been there enough lately that I know most of the range officers on sight.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
They are pretty relaxed as long as your not being dangerous or shooting something you shouldn't be.

When we went out last we found the wood bench on the pistol range up by the berm. Why would anyone shoot at something that says "do not shoot this" on it, when they provided it for your convenience. Futhermore they have cameras now. I know that wasn't Brad because the holes were to small for most of his berm tillers.

My wife told me awhile back they posted on Facebook about someone shooting the roof of the rifle range. Do you guys think Brad may be the culprit? Can we post a poll here yet?:)
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
The bench at the pistol pit we used had a written message on top of it, "No staples in top". Why would you staple something to the bench?
My favorite was the guys using a stack of tires at 10 yards for target holders for pistols. That is the photo they published on the newsletter that showed me that yes, they do have camers. And use them.

Polls are possible however they may cause Rick, and possibly Ben, to become very unhappy. Please don't make them unhappy.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Unhappy and sick to my stomach over this forum going downhill like that. :confused: On another forum one guy has cabin fever and everybody else on the forum is going to pay for it and suffer right along with him. Nonsense!
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Staples in a bench where I'd like to set my gun is annoying. I've noticed that too.
I wouldn't dare go out there today. I think weekend shoots are out for awhile for me anyway.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
I'm not a fan of a cavity that large.
On deer, out of a rifle.....you'd most likely end up with a " blow up " of your bullet.

My opinion, others may see it differently.

Ben
 

Steel13

New Member
I would agree Ben. For deer, out of a rifle, I think they would bust apart. I do have a smaller pin for this mold that I'd use for hunting bullets. I would consider these more of the two legged varmint bullet out of my 4" Smith.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
And for that application, your deep , large dia. HP would probably work well.

Ben
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
First, you do not need a HP in a .44 for deer. It will destroy penetration. Your boolit is too clean, need lube on the boolit not just in the groove. Ben's has proven too slippery in a revolver and a boolit can jump the case before ignition. Put some lanolin in it.
I have taken more deer with the .44 then you can count and I would never use a HP.
My last count is 180 revolver kills and I can tell you what every boolit and caliber does.
Go to the lee 310 gr with 21.5 gr of 296, Fed 150 primer, cast hard, water dropped WW metal. Watch deer go down.
LBT 320 WLNGC is good, same load.
My first revolver kills were with the 240 XTP's and only because I seen them fall at 60 to 100 yards did I recover them. Bullets did not go through and back tracking showed no blood trails at all. 240penetrationondeer.jpg Yeah, great mushrooms. Super water jug blowups. Dump the HP in the .44.
 

45 2.1

Active Member
We have two schools of thought going on about items like this..... and usually one side of the coin really doesn't understand the other side. Here we have Jim, shooting WD WW's at perhaps 21 BHN or above and shooting bone or the nervous system. If he shoots the chest cavity in a vital spot, he either has to overwhelm the animals nervous system or it will probably run a long ways (that hard bullet needs 6 to 8" of penetration to start causing real problems to) and I can tell you that big fat deer can do that and leave absolutely no blood because of fat plugging the holes. Yes, Elmer Keith shot hard bullets too, at least in his era, which were 16:1 lead to tin at about 9 BHN or so. Keith killed far more game than Jim has to. The other side of the coin is the softer HP side.... here we have a bullet for the lesser calibers that can't smash something down. Alloyed properly, they start working upon entrance and leave the off side with a nice hole. I started late with handguns for deer (1991) because that's the first year my state allowed them to be used. I've wracked up quite a count since then and have about 2/3 Jim's count. I know what happens with what and how with HP's. What you've read above isn't what happens when you do it right..... and that is, the HP hits the deer (preferably in the heart/lung area) it starts expanding and blows the HP off to the base of the HP really causing immediate fatal damage to the internal organs (which you're not going to eat) and punching on thru. I usually loose a rib or two. Smaller legal calibers (30 Carbine or 357 Mag) drop deer from a few yards to 70 yards and that depends on how far away it was when you shot it. 80 yards is no trick to do with a handgun on a deer either. The 44 Special and 45 Colt need loads which meet my states reg's which is 500 FPE at the muzzle which is doable depending on the gun. The 41 Mag and above are usually DRT. Either way works when you know what to do and saying one or the other doesn't work leaves me wondering just what the author knows.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Definitely two schools of thought here. I belong to the one that believes there is nothing wrong with hollow points for Bambi in a 44 mag DEPENDING on alloy/velocity. Air cooled CWW with a little tin will do an admirable job with enough velocity, it will open up and it will punch right through leaving a leaking hole on both sides. I also believe it would be foolish with HP's to use a harder alloy. With HP's harder is even more foolish in higher velocity cartridges. I used the BH 44 in Oregon a few years back hunting pig with Glen Fryxell, I used the RCBS 300 gr HP'd by Erik, also had the gas check shank removed so it was a plain base.

All that said for Bambi this year it will be my 7 1/2 inch BH/Bisley 45 Colt using the MP clone of the RCBS 270 SAA in original flat point plain base. Where I'll be hunting there will be no chance of a shot over 60 yards and more than likely not that long.

Both schools of thought can work, it's not a zero sum game and it's not my way or the highway. Proper alloy, velocity and a properly placed shot and it's Bambi for dinner.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Extrapolating our own experiences to others is never a wise choice.
Shooting cast is a "game" where there is seldom a single right answer. I strive to find the right answer for me, my guns, and my methodology. What I don't do is strive to make other people's methods work for me.

I would have no trouble using this particular HP on deer with the right alloy/velocity combination. I have, however, proven to myself that a large HP with hard alloy will blow the nose clean off and give poor penetration. Learned that lesson the hard way but at least I finally recovered the deer.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
What I don't do is strive to make other people's methods work for me.

I've learned a great deal from other peoples methods over the years but little from posts such as "you must do it my way". Comments such as "leaves me wondering just what the author knows" aren't helpful or informative for anyone either. Little doubt the "author" knows a great deal and is quite satisfied with his results doing it his way. Just because he may be doing it differently than someone else does not mean it doesn't work. Nor does it mean it's the only way.

As I see it both methods discussed here have merit, both can/will work, both depend on a properly placed shot. A HP that's too hard and or brittle is useless and will blow apart. A properly malleable HP driven too fast isn't any better.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Exactly Rick. An HP with alloy and velocity matched to the use work wonderfully. Outside that range things can go south and fast.
I know Khornet likes hard, brittle HP bull likes driven fast for prarie dogs. He wants the rapid disintegration of the bullet and it fits the need well.

My comment wasn't meant as a slight to others, just that I need to always make sure I take into account the differences in what I do compared to what others do. Unless I do exactly the same why would I expect the same results?
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
I try to shoot all deer behind the shoulders, I like shoulder meat. The .44 at the proper velocity has never failed me. If I shot slower I would lean to maybe a cup point.
I have found what is even better and that is to cast a softer nose, about half the nose length works great. That starts expansion quick but the boolit hangs together.
With a hard boolit I would not shoot them too fast either and the .44 just seems perfect as far as velocity. With the LBT 320 and the Lee 310, I get 1316 fps and do not want more.
Now my 45-70 BFR runs at 1630 fps and is just a hole punch. It NEEDS boolit work before I use it again.
I have a theory about a flat nose that is too hard and fast. I believe there is a pressure wave off the nose that moves tissue out of the way to a secondary wound channel that will collapse behind the boolit. The boolit will not slow in an animal when you need it to. Control is to make two holes with enough internal damage and fellas are correct that a HP has to be just right so it does not break apart. Too fast expansion even if a bullet holds together is also bad, like the 240 XTP. I would use the 300 gr before going back to the 240.
I was in the HP camp long ago before it was legal for me to hunt deer. We shot water, clay, soaked paper and anything we could find and we always said WOW, what would that do to deer. We were wrong, they were better for woodchucks.
A hard boolit at the right velocity does massive damage as this neck shot shows. 100_1045.jpg
Then a buck shot right under the chin with my .475 at 76 yards, took the neck, a line of short ribs, traveled under the back straps to exit the ham. 100_1146.jpgI lost no meat at all. The .475 with a 22 bhn boolit has dropped 99% of deer hit in their tracks.
You need to know your gun and boolit. That HP would be better in the .44 special.
The most deer lost here are shot with magnum rifles, why guys need 7mm and 300 mags for deer less then 100 yards baffles me. Mangled flesh will seal fast while a clean cut will not stop bleeding. I found 12 dead deer on one property alone and find 10 or more when shroom hunting in the spring.
I really do kill more deer then the rifle hunters according to my friend in the checking store.