More 7-08 varmint meds

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Almost put this in the general discussion, what are you doing but figured it probably is better served in "Hunting" because....that's what it is.

Will try to be concise.....

OK,sometime around 2007?ish... Savage engineering must've been on a pretty stiff bender regarding twist rates on their 7-08 barrels. And I may have the exact dates and rates off just a touch but am pretty durn close.

They started 7-08 barrels with either,a 1/9 or a 1/9.5,then for no "apparent" reason.....and under a slight veil of secrecy... they start making them @ 1/11.5,which I'll blame on cheap Scotch?

Everyone that receives the slow twist quickly figures out.... this sucks! We can't shoot pretty much any bullet remotely "popular". Should be noted about this time,which only ADDS to the doh'ness that the shooting fraternity had gotten fully entrenched in BC numbers....( heavy/long for calibre=high BC,necessitating faster twists)
 
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Intheshop

Well-Known Member
So,I have a stainless 7-08 @1/11.5 factory barrel being shipped that has less than 50 rds down it. The guy was choking on himself when I contacted him..... he couldn't believe anyone actually "wanted" it?

Now let's look at the bullet. This is the Lee 130 285-130R (think that's their #) that I love shooting. With GC,no lube it's right on 130g with my mix.... which isn't anything too special. Mostly old WW's with a little rotometal,dang near lino thrown in,water quenched.

So I took a few culls into the shop and milled off the base to,just barely the lowest lube groove. Brought them back to the loading rm,seated a GC and it weighs 103g20190407_111429_resized.jpg
 
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Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Just took a scrap of wood,drilled an "I" sized hole through it.... then slit it on a 1939 Walker Turner BS(ha,love that ole saw)...

The hole is a .001" or two undersized.... but the nose of the bullet slides right in. Then mill the base.... pop it out of vise,poke a screwdriver in slot....bullet drops out.

Proof of concept being the driver here. Obviously if this bullet works in the new slow twist barrel..... I'll order another Lee mold and mill "IT" instead of the above way.

Interesting too,on a general note.... which should be obvious but,until you see it,words don't do justice.... a milled base is pretty durn slick. Something I had fooled with before but never really "took off". If I was going into competition ( vs hunting) ... would give some serious thought to this process.

That's about as short a story as I can make it. Looking for powders though..... thinking 3000fps
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah,Savage went "back" to the std 1/9.... about as quietly as they left. How many of these barrels are out there gathering dust? Beats me but,owners pretty much will give them to you.
 

Urny

NE Nevada stumbling to SW Missouri
Great report. A shooting report will be interesting too, and some in the field critter testing as well.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
Sounds like fun. If you have any issues due to lack of lube capacity you can lathe the groove deeper as an experiment, or send me a bunch of them to powder coat for you.
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Think it was that movie,Oh Brother Where Art thou.... the guys are riding down the rd and pickup the guitar player at the "crossroads". When they ask him about selling his soul to the devil in exchange for brilliance on his guitar.... his response,on his soul was.

"Well I wasn't usin it"?

That's about how I feel about lube grooves on HV rifle bullets. Only use the small space above GC. On the 100g "conversion" above,I lose the little space. Hard to see on the pics but.... there is none after milling. But,can use the one remaining groove.

I've never shot a water jug in 40+ years of blasting cast bullets..... this hot little # may change that?

Been using 37g of Varget with the 130... which is into JB load tables. On the 100g will use Varget first. Then I think 4895. Then maybe play with some of my current favorite H4198.... but this last powder will be more for a lighter load,down around 27-2800. The first two choices should get me to 3000 easy enough.
 
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Spindrift

Active Member
.....
That's about how I feel about lube grooves on HV rifle bullets. Only use the small space above GC.
......
That is interesting! What is your favourite lube, by the way?
Your milled bullet looks very cool, interesting concept. Good luck, and happy shooting!
 

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
7mm twist rates have ALWAYS been 4 turns/meter or 1-9.8"--since about forever. Gotta wonder what Savage was thinking about with that bum-foozle-rama decision.

I will be looking on as you venture forth with the varmint bullet 7-08 Project. I am satisfied in my 6.5 x 55 Varmint Load query that the 85 grain Sierra vs. the 100 grain Hornady are a dead heat accuracy-wise (they both run sub-1" at 3200 and 3000 FPS respectively), and would make first-rate coyote flatteners.
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Internet "non"-provider issues..... happens every time a cloud goes over.

Lube; been using 50/50 Vaseline/BW for everything since starting casting. It only stopped working when I went with a case full of IMR4350 behind a 175g 311141 at sumthin like 27-2800(book) fps in my avatar '06. Can't remember exactly who/what the occasion was here at AB? Somebody said HV and I was "sure,why not".

That '06 went straight from being "unwrapped" to... slamming X's @100 'round 1800fps or so,with IIRC,one of the 4895's. And I still get to grinning with that load,stupid accurate. 50/50 lube.

First 3 shots with the jacked up 4350 load... the lube made it out the stainless barrel before the bullet. I thought it rather amusing. Fiver simply said "more wax".... so here's the part where it gets a little,oh how to say? Spooky. The 50/50 is all blended up in proper dbl boiler fashion,taking my time,making large batches...Julia Childs would approve.

When it came time to "add" wax to around 3-1 ( wax-vaseline),I borrowed another chef trick and "minced" the wax,and "cut" or folded it into the 50/50. Think "dirty" mashed potatoes for lack of better description. Whelp,something happens when using it this way,but use a whole lot less than what most would even consider. Like,any less would be none.... been using it that way ever since?
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Would have to check notes on the '06.... 49g? IMR4350... is vaguely what I remember but,thatsvwhy it's wrote down,too lazy to go look. But it only took 3 or 4 trys to find the node.It is a sledge hammer.... on both ends,haha. Just don't use very much lube.
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Sorry,it's just a bit easier to seperate posts than make one loooong one.

Slight frustration with looking up "dope" on the intertube.... still gets me going when looking for 223 info for bolt guns. The search engine'ers keep throwing "oh you're shooting an AR" info back. Gets old after about the umpteenth 1000th time.

Whelp,same with 100g 7-08 data..... I mean come on,Sierra makes a 100g 7mm HP,we'll assume,since they even say so.... that this is a varmint vaporizer. But try to get dope on it. It's either 120g 7-08 data or "oh,you must be shooting a 7mm Rem mag" .

Just sayin, good luck looking for 100g 7-08 loads. Not a whole lot in any of my loading books neither. If anyone has a Sierra manual,look and see if they list it?
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Forgot about that source Rick,thanks for the jog. Looks like I am on the right track with Varget and H4895.... good velocity with low'ish'er pressures.

Haven't been terribly concerned using starting JB loads with cast on several rigs here. Watching all the "usual" pressure signs,from the case's standpoint has shown it to be about inline with JB's. If anything, they're running a touch less? if it was head to head test.

Well,the above is with one reservation....WRT to the cases. If you look at how neck clearance influences the carbon,blowback.... "ring around the tub" look on the neck after firing. A tip picked up from Tony Boyers excellent book,on fine tuning the clearance. It also is headsup to lead blowback..... similar to antimony "wash" up the barrel. At certain pressure/neck clearance/jam length you can experience this lead blowback which looks like a bunch of tiny,tiny little pimples on the case neck and down the shoulder. Yet,none up the barrel. I always just backed out of the jam .005" and it usually disappears..... or just keep backing out till it does. But then the groups horizontal starts to "act up" so,if it bothers you...... and it wipes right off,ain't like it's soldered...don't go any further out of the jam until the pimps stop.
 

Ole_270

Active Member
Once had a Stevens 200 7-08 with that slow twist. Didn't take long to figure out it didn't like anything over 140 gr and barely tolerated those. Ended up trading for a JC Higgns 51-L 308 project gun. Think I for sure got the better end of the deal.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
I've been using jaxketed load data for HV cast for just about forever. Start low and work up, the usual deal.
 

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
I seldom run cast rifle bullets much past 1900 FPS. Once in a great while, I 'go a little wide' and prospect in those mountains. But it is an infrequent venture.

One such venture involved my VERY WELL-DIMENSIONED 30-06, a 1950s commersh Husqy Mauser 98 with .3085" throat and .300" x .308" bore x grooves. Likely the best 30-06 I have ever owned, and BOY HOWDY can it SHOOT with bullets it likes. And it likes the Lee 200 grain bore rider--A LOT.

I mention what follows in the context of the 'minimal lube' texts above. Lee bullets have shallow lube grooves compared to many makers' cavity characteristics. I size the Lee 200 at .309" (a couple tenths large in my H&I die) and lube with LSS Carnauba Red. I fill all of the lube grooves, in the belief (without a shred of evidence) that a filled lube groove resists deformation/collapse better than an empty one. I haven't seen evidence of lube surging with the Lee bullets so far. There is a nice lube star at the muzzle, and the downrange-box chronograph gets almost zero lube sling-off 15 yards downrange.

Running the Lee bullets in the 1500-1600 FPS ballpark gave docile recoil and decent accuracy. (Alliant 2400 powder). 50 yard chrysanthemums, 100 yard five-shotters in the 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" ballpark. Grouping remained pretty constant at the 1750-1800 FPS level, with a bit more recoil. (IMR 4064 powder). A pretty good day of shooting, all told--120 rounds downrange, and not a hint of leading in the bore at end-of-day bore cleaning.

Time to go a little wide. I am a fan of Bartlett's milsurp powders, and have done a number of weird things with WC-860 over the years. WC-860 is one of the "spec" powders for 50 BMG service ammo, and at one time could be had for very low prices. 55.0 grains of WC-860 in my Ruger 77R in 6.5 x 55 (100%-density load) gave 1896-level ballistics to 140 grain jacketed bullets--about 2450 FPS, and STELLAR accuracy. That rifle dotes upon 140 grain bullets. All of them, any maker. Even Lyman #266469.

120 30-06 empties got tumbled and processed, and I set 50 aside (all W-W, 2x-fired). F/L-sized, they didn't "need" a trim but I evened them all up at 2.485" just for drill. My ancient Lyman M-die 30 caliber spud is about .307" plus a few tenths, and they saw that tool enroute to priming with Federal #215 LRM primers. WC-860 can be hard to awaken.

60.0 grains of WC-860 was poured into each, and the Lee 200s got seated to same OAL as the prior loads, just kissing the throat's leade origin.

The next day I drove the 12 miles to the range site. Oh, how I miss living in Ridgecrest......I set up the bench kit and chronograph, and fired 10 fouling shots through the cleaned bore, just for grins at the 300 yard dinger plates. OK! A hit, and with that came a pretty good recoil push and the loud, throaty, boomy report I have come to love from WC-860 powder in all its calibers. IIRC, I got 7 hits out of 10 fouling shots with this load at 300 yards. The indicia was hopeful, and the benchrest portion promised to be a fun ride.

Eight five-shot groups at 100, and again the grouping ran 1-1/4" to 1-1/2 inches. Velocities ran 2045-2110 FPS, the chrono wasn't glumped up with slung lube, but the muzzle's lube star looked a bit gritty at day's end. No zombie kernels in the bore, but the bore was DIRTY. Accuracy didn't fall off, though. Maybe all of that C-Red acted like BP lube, and kept the fouling soft enough to blow out after every shot. (The 6.5 x 55/WC-860 loads DID lay down hard fouling, and accuracy fell off after 12-15 rounds very noticeably. 10-round cleaning intervals kept things polite.)

FWIW.
 
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Intheshop

Well-Known Member
CZ,nice report. There are "lube stars" and then there's "dripping out the muzzle like a leaky faucet"....which is why the first attempt at starting JB load of 4350 with a soft 50/50 lube was downright funny.

Really don't want to be "that guy" but..... never spent anytime looking for lubes,or "worrying" about pressure effects on bullets at least from a data logging standpoint. Now will say,I give powders consideration when it comes to recoil,AND
how the powder residual effects the bore for not just that day,but over a period of time. But generally just shoot,and then look at what the target,and case is trying to tell me.

HV is "one" holy grail to hunting from a first round,range estimation standpoint. It,slow twists,square bases,light bullets all do translate twds short range BR however. Considered to be 100 and 200 yds. Boat tails(which I'm ready to start making),and high BC's aren't the drivers in short range like they are for long range..... and I get it. My varmint blasting is <200. And not because of any other reason than personal satisfaction to "hunt" vs snipe. Actually I prefer right around 75 yds.
 
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CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
Cast bullet varmint hunting is a '200 yard max' exercise for me as well. Past that distance, it's all j-words with few exceptions.

The closest thing I have seen to "Lube pouring out of the muzzle" occurred with revolvers and Keith SWC bullets, #429421 specifically. That huge lube groove was still slinging Javelina 50/50 Alox/BW onto B-27s at 25 yards. I bit too much of a good thing, perhaps. They still shoot well, though.