More mini-lathe upgrades!

wquiles

Well-Known Member
Great write up Will, and valuable insight into the "dark side" of Machine Shop. Wish Keith were still here, I'm sure he would second what you've said.
Oh man, yes. I am sure Keith could write a book or two on stories and projects!
 

Ian

Notorious member
I learned a lot from Keith, particularly the business side. You have to charge what it's worth if you charge, and it takes a lot of money and tooling to become productive. If you're working only for yourself you can work around tooling limitations and substitute time for tools which are more efficient.
 

wquiles

Well-Known Member
I learned a lot from Keith, particularly the business side. You have to charge what it's worth if you charge, and it takes a lot of money and tooling to become productive. If you're working only for yourself you can work around tooling limitations and substitute time for tools which are more efficient.
+1

Well said Ian. I learned the business part from my machining/welding mentor. He told me that the idea is to charge enough for the work to "get" some work, but not too much that you get no interest either - all depends on the supply/demand. The time part of course this depends on how much time/work you have available to work on this hobby/business to start with - in my particular case, it was only weekends I had available, and I do have a family, so I didn't want to spend ALL weekend working on somebody else's project, so I priced myself accordingly.

I have done well over 100 of these little guys - shipped all over the world:
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I of course made custom tooling/holders/etc. to optimize operations to save me time/effort and be more consistent:
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I also offered LOTS of customizations, since after all I was making them one at a time. I made each one exactly like the customer wanted - that allowed me to charge a premium. Here are some examples from a sales thread I had back in 2009:

***
The detailed cost for a turn-key 1xD with a P7, using a 3xAA adapter are:
- 1xD Host cut/re-thread in any color ($60 domestic - this includes shipping)
- P7 LED $30
- P7 heatsink $20 (order these from Asia - about a 3 week wait)
- deep tailcap mod $25
- mdocod 3xAA adapter $25 (I order these from forum member Eric, aka mdocod)
- assembly, labor, misc supplies (epoxy, Al, Delrin, cables, etc.) $60
- cut/modify switch for flat cells and LED wiring - free

Total with shipping = $220 (domestic)
Total with shipping = $230 (international with tracking #)


The detailed cost for a turn-key 1xD with a P7, using a single 18650 cell are:
- 1xD Host cut/re-thread in any color ($60 domestic - this includes shipping)
- P7 LED $30
- P7 heatsink $20 (order these from Asia - about a 3 week wait)
- Deep tailcap mod with Delrin spacer and Al plug for 18650 cell (all included) = $55
- assembly, labor, misc supplies (epoxy, Al, Delrin, cables, etc.) $60
- cut/modify switch for flat cells and LED wiring - free

Total with shipping = $225 (domestic)
Total with shipping = $235 (international with tracking #)

Often asked options:
- Head, body grooving is extra at $35 each
***


However, it was not meant to last. Once enough alternate sources/vendors/home hobbyists came into the picture to compete with me on the basic machining, cut & rethread jobs, etc., I didn't lower my prices - I stop providing that particular service, and moved to provide custom assemblies, completed flashlights, etc. - things that needed more than what just a machinist could do - electronics, soldering, understanding LED's and heatsinks, etc.. And then when the copies from China came, I exited the segment completely. It was no longer worth my time.

I then ran into the titanium and brass shaving handles:
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I even made 2-3 Titanium custom shaving brushes - but folks were not willing to pay for my materials and time, so I stopped those very quickly:
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Now, if I had a CNC machine, I probably would had made a LOT more money while the demand was high, since my limiting factor at the time was not having enough time to work on these. I considered a couple of times, but I was never able to make the ROI math work to make the jump to CNC.

Will
 
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Ian

Notorious member
People with no exposure to making precision parts on a manual machine don't have a frame of reference for the time, effort, and expense involved. We're used to buying things which are mass-produced by companies who have built up their tooling over long periods of time and can exploit the economy of scale to turn a profit while keeping things affordable for the consumer.

For example, there's no way you or I could make a Lee push-through sizing die and push rod for $20. Maybe $100, after buying reamers and making a jig to turn and thread the parts uniformly. Might break even after selling half a dozen of them.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
That is why I want to keep my mill and lathe a hobby and not a business. As a hobby my time has little value, as a business it becomes very valuable.

A Lee pushthru die from scratch is a good hour of work and a maybe 4-5 bucks in material. I can get a blank from Keith and save at least 30 min but cost of material more than doubles.

Doing them for cash with intent to actually make money would mean a $40-50 per cost minimum.

The mould I just hollowpointed took me about 2.5 hours. Even at $20 and hour it would be $50. That wouldn’t take into account material or tools. $75 min to even consider it.

As a hobby I feel comfortable telling people it may take a few weeks. As a business they have “expectations”.
 

wquiles

Well-Known Member
Oh man, when I was active making parts/projects for others, I got low-balled so often it was almost insulting. Folks simply had no idea - no basis for handmade stuff. It was rare for me to find a potential customer who wanted something custom that was truly prepared to pay "custom pricing".

Now-a-days, I am mostly like you Brad. I no longer make/offer anything - I make stuff for myself and sometimes good friends :)
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I make stuff for others but generally at low to no cost. Frequently for a trade.
I am happy that way.
Most of all I enjoy making things and can only use so much for myself.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I'm going to offer a few things for sale, not as a business venture but to help people get what can't be had any other way if they really need it. Since each part is hand made, it is no big deal to make custom ones. I'll ask what is necessary to make it worth my time, take it or leave it, I already make more per hour than I'm asking at my regular job and my regular job is easier. Trades are good payment too.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I bet most people have no idea how expensive some of the material can be. Most steel is t too bad in 3/4” and smaller but brass is horribly expensive. A single Lee push thru die is about 3 bucks worth of steel and the pusher is another 50 cents.

I have managed to get by reasonably On tooling thus far but it is still expensive. A “cheap” Hertel drill index, 115 bits, was over 200 bucks. As I go thru them ,drills are expendable, I replace them with better quality bits.

Ian, if you start drilling lots of holes of a certain size consider parabolic bits. Buckshot Recommended them and they do clear chips really well.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I have some parabolic bits and they do well. I'm going to upgrade a few bits to cobalt steel as recommended to me by RJ. I also need a 29-piece stub drill set and index, might go cobalt with those but for 'merican I'm looking at $400-600. The very next thing that gets bought will be a mister system because I'm on my last nerve dealing with oily chips and swarf stuck to everything like my toolpost rails and chuck innards, not to mention the lathe bed and frame. Even with oil things run hot and slow. It took me all day to turn down, polish, drill, bore, and thread the press ram adapter from chrome-moly steel using HSS tooling. Fine for piddling but I have two little kids and not much time to play in the shop.