Musing about Lee Precision

[Matt]

I just finished testing a .44/40 load for the 1866 Winchester Japanese repro that my darling wife bought for my 60th birthday this year. I tried and failed to make one of my many .44 molds work in this rifle. The overall length and bullet shape is very important so it feeds and fits in the cartridge carrier block( the original controlled round feeding system btw) Nothing worked. A traditional .44 WCF bullet would work with BP or the Lee FCD. I’ve found the Lee FCD is pretty hard in case mouths when used on .44/40 and .38/40. I didn’t want to go down the BP road or wear out brass. I started looking for molds and found the Lee 44 200 gr RNF. Looked like it was meant for smokeless powder with its crimp groove. Had the typical Lee shallow lube grooves, but looked like the ticket. It was a little hard to find one in stock, but Titan Reloading had a six cavity and two days later I had it. Cast several hundred bullets and sized 200 at .430 with Ben’s Red ( thanks Ben) The rest got pushed through a Lee .430 sizing die and two coats of Ben’s tumble lube. I’ll load them next. Out to the range, 13 shots at 50 was 1/2 the size of the Black Hills cowboy loads that cane with the gun. Bore had a light lead wash when I started, now was bright. I’ve seen this with two bullet lubes, LBT Blue Soft and Ben’s Red. Then I shot 40 rounds quickly at 100 yards to check for function, than my light roll crimp kept the bullets in place, and to check for leading. Everything worked and bore was still bright.

i was tickled that this all worked out so easily. I then remembered that Lee solved my ammunition issues with my M92 .38WCF rifle too. I had a Winchester mold from a Winchester 73 .38/40 that I loaded with BP only but that bullet had the same issues with smokeless. What I settled on was the Lee .40 caliber 175gr TC TL bullet. I started with Lee tumble lube (now use Ben’s) with a light roll crimp in the top TL groove. It is marvelously accurate as cast and tumble lubed. The six cavity Lee mold makes it easy to stay supplied with bullets. As I sat there I realized I used Lee molds, casting furnace, reloading dies, and a bullet sizing die, and their TL in Ben’s recipe. I’d solved some tough problems all thanks to Lee. In fact I loaded my first .243 ammunition almost 50 years ago with a Lee Loader. Can’t feel anything but affection for the company.

First photo 13 shots at 50 (that’s magazine capacity) Second 40 shots at 100 all from a rest.

 

[Ben]

I'll admit that I've been somewhat critical of Lee on occasions.
Mostly about their bullet mould poor quality control .

However, I'm like you.......Lee is a winner in my book.
There are a lot of people reloading and shooting that don't have $800 to invest in reloading tools.

By the way, that is some fine shooting ! !

Ben

 

[Matt]

But the few issues I’ve had including a broken decapping rod from that first Lee loader was always cheerfully replaced at no charge. Forgot to show the rifle!

By the way Ben I really appreciate your bullet lube recipes. I think it’s the best, especially in high velocity revolvers. In my non gas checked 357, .41, .44, .480, and 500 revolvers I never have leading regardless of velocity and I shoot pretty soft bullets in everything. Not to say the revolvers and my hands don’t get greasy............but worth it and easy to clean.

 

[Ben]

You are VERY welcome.
Enjoy !!!!!!

Ben

( That is a beautiful rifle ! )

 

[462]

Nice butt stock.

I've a 24 1/4" octagonal barreled Uberti 1866 in .38 Special. It reliably feeds Lee's 358-158 RNFN, but their 358-158 SWC takes some lever fiddling. Same with the Rossi 92/EMF Hartford. A slight bevel on the bottom of the breech entrance seems a likely fix. My solution is to manually chamber each round.

 

[JWFilips]

Lee Stuff is OK in my book....but you need to use your common sense and gut feelings to make them work correctly!
That said: I would buy again!

 

[462]

Being Lee's end-user quality control department is almost as much fun as using their products.

 

[Matt]

462; what I learned from my ‘73 .38 WCF project is
that the ‘66 and ‘73 Winchester’s are the smoothest operating levers guns I’ve ever fired. I love shooting metal plates fast and generally shoot my groups loading the rifle to capacity. We’re in a golden time with all the quality Winchester reproductions available.

 

[CZ93X62]

Being willing to finish construction of their products helps immensely with both Lee and Ruger products.

The Lee 44 flatnose 200 grain bullet was my first mould tried in my 44/40 caliber firearms. It worked OK, but the shallow lube grooves and crimp groove do not inspire confidence. I went with a SAECO #446 in 44/40, and haven't looked back. Better accuracy, more defined grooves, what's not to like? Yeah, they cost more.

The late John Kort wrote extensively about the 44/40 WCF and loading Lyman #427098 in that cartridge. Briefly, he used a 100%-density load of RL-7 powder (24.0-25.0 grains) to support the bullet base in the loaded cartridge just as the column of black powder had in the BP era. Lyman bullet designs for the hyphenated Winchester rifle/revolver rounds 32/20 (#311008), 38/40 (#401043), and 44/40 (#427098) all lacked crimp grooves. They were meant to seat on the powder column, and have the case mouth set around the bullet ogive to wrap the package neatly. I have tried this method in 25/20 and 32/20 using 12.5 grains of RL-7 with Rem #6-1/2 primers and in 44/40 using 25.0 grains of RL-7 and CCI #350 primers. Results were black powder-era ballistics in the several handguns and rifles I attempted this with, and decent accuracy. The revolvers were a little gritty with granule zombies, the rifles burned pretty cleanly. Results reminded me of my various dabblings with 50 BMG milsurp powders in several rifle calibers.

ETA--Matt is 110% correct about the '66 and '73 levers being smooth rides. My '73 carbine (made 1897) likely has been fired more in the last 15 years of its life than it was for its first 108 years. Its career began as a ranch/farm gun through the Great Depression, and accounted for many deer and at least 2 black bears that my grandmother saw getting whacked for raids on the larder at the mountain ranch my Dad was born at in 1932.

 

[462]

Lever actions and single actions, oh, my! -- can't afford the originals so I've settled for Uberti, Rossi and Ruger.

I don't have an 1860 or 1873, yet, but cycling the 1866's lever is a joy. I gave my 1955 dated .30-30 Winchester 94 to my son, but its action was almost as difficult to cycle as a Red Ryder BB rifle.

The local gun store has a consignment brass frame .44-40 Original Henry, but it's not inexpensive and the barrel sleeve does not lock solidly in place.

 

[Ian]

Lee stuff can be pretty useful, especially if you have more patience and mechanical inclination than money.

My reloading presses are almost exclusively Lee, principle reason is that I prefer the primer tray system Lee uses for everything vs. tubes commonly found on other presses. I have half a dozen Pro-100s, one modified to work on the big Classic turret frame, the world's only three-hole, auto-indexing Classic Turret, a 4-hole CT that does most of my batch loading and workups, and a new breech-lock semi-progressive whatever they call it that I'm not sure I like yet. Lee makes a wonderful hand press that I use at the range sometimes. I haven't found a priming tool yet that I like better than the OLD Lee, and I've had several. I have a shelf full of fine, custom bullet moulds of all kinds, many built to my specifications, and in the end I use Lee moulds to do fully 90% of my casting and I cast a LOT. I've made custom powder-thru spuds for my bottleneck rifle dies because the Lee disc measures are so dang accurate and reliable. I've run about 2.5 tons of lead through a Pro 4-20 pot and other than the lever guide screw stripping out of the bottom a few times it has never let me down. I bought spare parts for it but haven't needed them yet.

So yeah, I'm a Lee Fanboi. Their stuff just works for me.

 

[Spindrift]

I use a lot of Lee stuff as well.
Almost all my brass is sized with Lee collet dies, using the Lee hand press. They are a perfect match, effortless sizing, and I can size my brass anywhere I like. I use the Lee C-press for bullet sizing, priming and a few other tasks. I have two Lee bottom pour pots. And flare dies for all my cartridges, using NOE expander plugs. Push-through sizers, of course. And lots of Lee moulds.

I do not, however, care for their «lock rings». They either get replaced with a proper lock ring, or a lock ring eliminator for the breech lock system.

 

[RicinYakima]

Most interesting, Spindrift. The Lee O-rings are my favorite piece of modern Lee tooling. I use them on every seating die that goes into a press to take care of the misalignment of ram and press/die surface. I even use them with the Harrell's presses because shell holders are not always square either.

 

[Gary]

I just bought a new FCD and it came with a new style lock ring, I like it!

 

[Brad]

I often add an o ring under other lock rings for the same reason Ric mentioned. Let the die float a bit to keep things square.

 

[Spindrift]

I use them on every seating die that goes into a press to take care of the misalignment of ram

Never thought of that- good point, Ric.

My reloading routines are shaped by the fact I’m often a bit short on time. All my seating dies have a lock ring that is always in the same position. Then, the COL of the finished cartridge is a function of the total length of the die. I write down the «tool length» in my reloading data. Next time I’m about to load a particular bullet, I can adjust the length of the seating die using my calipers, before mounting it in the press. It kind of converts my standard Lyman seaters to «digital micrometer» seaters. This system is pretty quick and accurate, but requires a lock ring that is actually locked in the same position at all times.

 

[Brad]

Try this.
Use a paint pen and make a small mark on front of press. Make a matching line on lock ring when set properly WITH O ring under lock ring.
When you reinstall that particular die just screw it in snug with the lines aligned.
A full revolution is .071” of vertical change. Even if off by 1/16 turn, and you won’t be, it would be .004. I bet you will be within .001 of vertical with no problem.
It works way better than you would expect.

 

[Spindrift]

Will do!

 

[Ian]

Interesting thread.

Like Ric, I use the Lee lock rings with O-ring on just about every single die I have. Most other die lock rings (except for the Forster system) either micro-fret and back off imperceptibly until 500 rounds later you realize the problem, or they go from finger tight to needing a deep socket and a 4' cheater pipe to get them loose (RCBS anyone?) and still work loose on occasion. Misalignment, particularly with the setscrew type lock rings (not the pinch type) can range from none to severe and is difficult to check except by using s cartridge runout gauge to examine a dummy round loaded at the first of every new cartridge session.

Since I almost exclusively use Lee turret presses with the quick-change tool heads, my dies stay put and are largely a "set it and forget it" affair, so dealing with a depth setting every use is not an issue for me but binding or loosening of lockrings has been a chronic problem that Lee rings eliminate. I do mark all my die bodies in reference to the lock rings and toolheads out of habit because I've been burned so many times by a sizing die backing off .003 and the cartridges not chambering...after I have loaded them.

I noticed Lee has gone to a spline drive type locking ring now and have several on some new dies I recently purchased, but I didn't investigate them closely to see if there are any significant functional differences compared to the old ones.

The interrupted-thread, pinch type, quick-change rings that Lee has are also good because the load is equalized on the threads, not the lock ring. The standard quick-change Lee Breech Lock system is also good if you use the Lee lock rings with them. If I used a single-stage press for all my loading and changed calibers frequently I would probably invest in a Lee Breech Lock press and a bunch of the QC die rings to maintain settings.

 

[JonB]

Being Lee's end-user quality control department is almost as much fun as using their products.

I want to make a post here, but instead of composing 3 paragraphs that say exactly this ^^^
I figure a "quote" is more betta.

PS, The Hollow Rams on the Classic cast single and Classic Cast Turret is at the top of the list of many things I love about any/all Lee equip in general. Second place goes to their case gauge/trim design ...obviously their over all price point is on this list too.