Muzzle cutting

[Pistolero]

Well, in testing I have stripped the magazine and bands off and shot it with a naked barrel,
nothing at all touching it, on the bench with only the receiver touching a bag and groups were
mediocre at best, lots of really crummy groups, no indication that the mag tube, bands and
fore end (which I glass bedded to the receiver at the rear) are the issue. AFAIK, it is just a
junky barrel, for unknown reasons.

Bill

 

[fiver]

turning more off the outside won't help it any, it will actually make things worse by relieving internal stresses letting the hole in the middle change diameters.
if I was going to try anything I would sweat or glue a larger outer diameter tube [or two] onto the barrel.

 

[Ian]

Somewhere there's a bottle jack that needs a handle.

 

[Pistolero]

I think Ian has the right idea. Or maybe a tomato stake.
Seems a shame, but I have given that SOB every chance to show me a
good result, but nope.

Bill

 

[Pistolero]

Got the new (used) barrel for the Win 94. Basically looks new. I decided to cut the
muzzle to see how it was. WAY better, one of the most concentric muzzles I have yet cut.
I hope that is a good sign. Trying to decide whether to take the old barrel out with a
pipe wrench or try to save the exterior finish by making a barrel wrench. Not sure why
I would save the old barrel. Opinions?

Check this out. Just reached the edge of the bore on one side, and the other is almost
there, too. The chatter marks are cleaned up in the final cut by making a continuous,
very light cut. Not worried at this point.



I hope this means it will shoot well.

Any tips on barrel removal will be appreciated. I have done a Savage caliber swap
a couple times, but way different animal. I expect to work up some nice hardwood
holding blocks for the receiver and unscrew the barrel with a pipe wrench, since it
is apparent junk, unless someone has some reason not to do it that way.

Bill

 

[Ian]

You need a barrel wrench to put the new one on, especially with all the times you might have to torque it and pull it back off if the clocking and headspace doesn't come out right and you have to face the shoulder, so might as well make a wrench in the first place. Or buy the Brownells universal one and mill some hardwood jaws for it.

I don't know how tight the barrels are or if they're glued in place (my Taurus Thunderbolt was installed with high-strength threadlocker). Be wary of the powdered-metal receiver.

 

[Pistolero]

I was looking at it more closely this PM, and I think I will machine a steel block to fill the receiver slot
exaxtly before I try to unscrew it.

Good point about needing the barrel wrench to put it back on. So, may as well make or buy one.

Going to need it eventually anyway.

Bill

 

[fiver]

I was going to suggest filling the inside of the receiver with some wood or steel.
also make note of how the spring sits behind the cartridge release, it only goes one direction and works properly.
having a spare 30 cal barrel around would be pretty handy for a few things.

 

[Pistolero]

Will make a barrel vise. I can buy the raw materials for under $20, and the vises are way up into the $150 and higher prices.

A spare .30 cal barrel that is known to be inaccurate? You are welcome to it for postage.

I guess, I will need to make an action wrench, too.

Bill

 

[Ian]

Bill, if you end up having to set it back one thread or something, I have a good chamber reamer and both of the headspace gauges that you're welcome to borrow for the price of postage.

 

[fiver]

if I had any tooling to make things from it I would take it.

 

[Pistolero]

Thanks, Ian. I'll find out how consistent Winchester's manufacturing is. I dream
that it is possible that it will just screw in, clock up right or be just a hair short of tightening
to sight index. That would mean taking a hair off of the shoulder, and then just
a touch with the reamer to headspace. A guy can dream.

We'll see.

Bill

 

[Bret4207]

Bill, if it were me and I was going to pull the barrel anyway, I'd do a bit of action blueprinting while I had it apart. Just lapping the barrel/action interface helps and doesn't take a lifetime to do. I don't know what you can do about bolt face squareness, etc, but anything you do will be money in the bank. I would also look back through all my old "Gunsmiths Kinks" and Mic McPhearsons book on accurizing factory rifles, can't remember the name of it, regarding the 94 or 2 piece stock leverguns. A bit of buttstock and fore end bedding work/wood relief will probably net you more usable improvements than a different barrel. There have been a few articles printed over the years on tuning up lever guns, the 1965 Gun Digest has one for example, and you can cut your groups and especially your fliers with some judicious work. The Savage 99 is likely the king as far accurate lever guns as it is essentially a falling block action with a good barrel and the start of a good trigger, but even springier actions like the 94 and 92 can work out very nicely. Just as the guy that built a Ruger #1 into a 303 British found out that the cartridge is capable of great accuracy, the various lever gun rounds all benefit from a well put together platform to launch the bullet from.

 

[Ian]

Bolt face squareness...not the 99's strong suit. As the locking mechanism wears (receiver floor, lever nose, and back of the bolt where it contacts the lever nose), the headspace increases. As the headspace increases, so does the breechface angle to bore centerline. People will tell you that rear-locking actions aren't accurate, but nonetheless they seem to be exceptional in that department if the rest of the rifle is put together well and has a decent chamber/barrel/crown. Pete and I both own rear-locking leverguns that think they're benchrest guns.

Lapping the barrel shoulder to the receiver face is a good idea, it relieves uneven stress on the threads. The threads can be lapped, too, but should be done last. If the barrel shoulder is lapped to the receiver before serious torque is applied, it will pull up straight and true, but lapping the threads when the shoulder/receiver face aren't true doesn't fix the stress problem.

 

[Pistolero]

Bret, that barrel is just bad. I spent several years of tinkering with it. Relieved the barrel bands. Glass bedded
the forend to the receiver and relieved it from the barrel. Finally, I removed the forend, barrel bands and
magazine tube and shot a series of loads with the receiver rested on a bag at 100 yds. The groups were poor
in all cases, no hint of improvement with ANY changes, all the way to an entirely unencumbered, naked, 'fully
floated' barrel with a perfect crown. The same ammo shoots very well in other guns like my 336 or my brother's
W94. I do not understand why it is not accurate, but the experimental work is unambiguous. The problem is
the barrel.

I will take the lazy route and IF (I can dream, can't I?) the barrel screws in and either clocks up correctly, or
is just short, I will take enough off of the shoulder to get it to clock. If it turns out it goes 20 or 30 degrees
past TDC.....then the work to square the front of the receiver and match the shoulder will happen since I
will have to take off a full thread and recut the chamber. But I hope to avoid that work and take the basic
short cut to a GOOD job, but no heroics unless required.

I put together an AK from a kit. Riveted and spot welded sheet metal and trunions together, pressed in the barrel, pressed
on the gas block and front sight, drilled and reamed and pinned the barrel to headspace and in the end, with decent
Prvi milsurp ammo and all sorts of crap hanging on the barrel, gas tube, gas block, steel handguard, etc, right off the bat
I shot a 1.5" 5 shot group at 100 with the open sights, with about the sight radius of a Contender. Lapped and
fitted nothing, a mixmaster of US pieces, Hungarian pieces and stuff I made. Properly put together, as best
workmanship as I can do, but nothing heroic.

I expect a darned milled steel Win 94 with twice the sight radius to be able to come somewhere close to that, and
this POS would not do that repeatably at 50 yds, ever. About the best 5 shot groups I could repeat were 4-5 inches at 100. I
lucked into a few 2" groups, but never could repeat, with same ammo, even a second time. LOTS of 7 and 8 inch
groups at 100, too.

Bill

 

[Bret4207]

Bolt face squareness...not the 99's strong suit. As the locking mechanism wears (receiver floor, lever nose, and back of the bolt where it contacts the lever nose), the headspace increases. As the headspace increases, so does the breechface angle to bore centerline.

.

Not sure I get what you mean. The back of the bolt bears against the recvr.

 

[Ian]

That's part of it, yes. The lever nose is the other part of it. As the parts you can't see with the stock on begin to wear, the rear of the bolt sinks. As that happens, the breech face and headspace get out of whack due to the sloping rear bolt locking surface. Peruse my rebuild project thread and I have lots of pictures and discussion about this issue.

 

[Bret4207]

Okay, I get it. But you're talking no lube and a lot of cycling over a significant period of time. I'm talking out of the box as they come. The hotter the loads, the more they wear, that's true for all of them. The Savage has a lot going for it, a lot more than most (all I can think of except maybe the BLR) other lever actions. The fact they do well in 22-250, 243, 250 Sav, 284 Win, 308, 358 says a whole lot for the design.