Muzzle loader bullet size

[Tomme boy]

Was wondering if anyone has some insight into what size would you want for a muzzle loader bullet for a 50 cal. IdahoRon has a nice design that works very well in his 50 cal rifles. He has it spect at 0.508" I have no idea what is needed for a muzzle loader. I see the paper patch guys size for the top of the lands so the whole bullet is a bore rider. It must be getting bumped up on firing.

Most commercial designs are a tapered design with the base being the smallest. My rifle measures the best I can get anyway. is 0.4995"x 0.5095"

I already have the Lee 250gr and 320gr REAL molds. And a TC 370gr miniball mold. These all shoot ok at best. I feel they are a little small and the Lee bullets have almost no bearing surface. T/C guns have a lot more shallow bore and groove measurements. Some of the others out there have almost 2x the depth of rifling. The bullet mold I am looking at has almost 2x the bearing surface as the Lee molds. It is Accurate 50-415i.

 

[358156 hp]

It's too bad that Idaho Lewis hasn't been here for awhile, he'd be the perfect one to ask. You could try his Youtube channel and see what you can find: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd_pJIAvoyE8YRDCC5kCHyg

 

[Tomme boy]

Is idahoron the same person as @Idaholewis? I tried to tag Lewis but it will not let me. Or let me send him a PM???? I know both have a 45cal fast twist hawkins. But separate channels on youtube.

What I am concerned with is going too large. These can be a bear sometimes to get down the bore. I have several guns and all are a little different for size. This one I want to use it in has a 1-38" twist so I should be good for heavy bullets. He was shooting that bullet in a 1-48" twist Renagade and it shot very well.

My side hammer guns I have not slugged. Being I will have to pull the bullet back out, I will have to drill a hole to get the bullet puller jag started. And I will have to fill the bottom of the barrel with something so the bullet does not drop off into the small chamber in the breech plug. If it does it might not come out again without screwing the breech plug off. I really don't want to go there. But I know the side hammers are a little smaller than the inline I want to use this bullet in.

 

[Winelover]

My TC 54 caliber Renegade uses .530 diameter RBs with a .010 thick pre cut/pre lubed Ox Yoke patch. Have their Maxi Ball mold. As cast diameter is .5455 tapering to .5375. Loads easier than I thought it would and I'm satisfied with it's better than shotgun slug accuracy. What I don't care for is the recoil.....more than necessary for deer sized game.

My 50 caliber is a (1 in 48) Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle. Uses .490 RB with same patch thickness as the 54 Renegade. I have used TC's factory Maxi's but never bought their mold................don't shoot it enough, after purchasing the Renegade. Plus, the unnecessary recoil. Shoots well enough for deer hunting. Sorry, don't have any to measure.

Great thing about patched RB's is the reduced recoil and the ability to adjust patch thickness when chasing accuracy. Saves lead too.

Now, if I were after bear or elk the Maxi would be the ticket.

 

[Maven]

It's too bad that Idaho Lewis hasn't been here for awhile, he'd be the perfect one to ask. You could try his Youtube channel and see what you can find: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd_pJIAvoyE8YRDCC5kCHyg

Until you can contact IDL, maybe the best course is to beagle one or more of those moulds, then retest for diameter and accuracy. Paper patching and sabots , e.g., MMP Green HP, are other options especially if you have Lyman #429421 or its RCBS equivalent, but you'll have to deal with "plastic" bore fouling.

 

[Tomme boy]

I have shot the sabots for years in all of the guns I have and never had a problem with plastic fouling.

 

[Tomme boy]

I tried asking about this on a muzzle loader forum and it seems that everyone is telling me to just use a patch and round ball. Or paper patching. I don't need another rabbit hole to go down with paper patching.

So it looks like I just need to get it sized to the groove then size the bullet after that. Otherwise the same as we are doing it now but a little under so you don't have to beat it down from the fouling. I swab the bore between shots so fouling is greatly reduced. I guess that was why Ron specified it at 0.508".

But I am going to throw another variable into this. Still going to lube the bullet and use a lubed felt wad under the bullet. But I want to try PCing the bullet.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

Was wondering if anyone has some insight into what size would you want for a muzzle loader bullet for a 50 cal. IdahoRon has a nice design that works very well in his 50 cal rifles. He has it spect at 0.508" I have no idea what is needed for a muzzle loader. I see the paper patch guys size for the top of the lands so the whole bullet is a bore rider. It must be getting bumped up on firing.

Most commercial designs are a tapered design with the base being the smallest. My rifle measures the best I can get anyway. is 0.4995"x 0.5095"

I already have the Lee 250gr and 320gr REAL molds. And a TC 370gr miniball mold. These all shoot ok at best. I feel they are a little small and the Lee bullets have almost no bearing surface. T/C guns have a lot more shallow bore and groove measurements. Some of the others out there have almost 2x the depth of rifling. The bullet mold I am looking at has almost 2x the bearing surface as the Lee molds. It is Accurate 50-415i.

See if he will send you a few bullets to try before you buy the mold. Won't hurt to ask.

 

[CZ93X62]

Much less recoil + far better accuarcy across the board has made me a PRB enthusiast.

 

[Rick H]

I can tell you that I own 4 50 cal. muzzle loaders, TC, and three CVA's. I shoot the same sabots and bullets through each of them. The TC has the tightest bore, and none of the three CVA's have the same diameter bore judging from the effort it takes to seat the saboted bullets down the clean bores.
I have a Lyman and a TC .54 cal rifles both handle as cast Lee R.E.A.L. bullets "OK", the Lyman (66" twist) is much better with PRB.
My experience tells me that you will have to find what works in your particular rifle. Standardization seems like a wish as opposed to reality.

 

[Snakeoil]

I would think that the twist rate of the barrel would play a major role in what bullet will shoot best out of the rifle. The twist rate should determine the weight range for a given caliber. As for bullet size, I would think that you would shoot pure lead bullets and they will always bump up to fill the rifling. So that will allow you easier loading.

So, find yourself a .50 cal twist rate chart on the web and knowing the twist rate of your rifle should help you select a few bullet weights and then from there you can pick the designs you want to try.

 

[Tomme boy]

1-38" is the twist for the one I am talking about. This barrel has a larger than normal size that TC usually has. It shoots the sabots really well. But has never shot any conical that well. I have tried most all the conical bullets that have been available over the last 20 years. I have both the LEE REAL molds, and a TC 370gr maxiball mold. I need to go shoot a few of the ones I have that I powder coated to increase the diameter.

 

[Missionary]

Another PRB shooter. And if I think one PRB will not do it we can shove another down on top of the other one. That is a long practiced means of a needed bigger smash. Bear up close, invaders .....

 

[Snakeoil]

From my limited experience, 1:48 and slower is for RB. 1:48 and faster is for conicals. So, your twist rate is definitely intended for conicals, but might be a tad fast for the big conicals that come out of a .50. But seem it does a nice job with skinny little sabots.

I was looking for a twist rate chart for you and stumbled upon this thread and thought you might find it of interest. My guess is that site will have gobs of info on your question.

.50 Cal TC Maxi Ball

I couldn’t resist the Deal i got on this Brand New, Old Stock .50 Cal TC Maxi Mold, The Guy sold it to me for the “Sticker price” on the Box :) I also have a Lyman 50 Cal Maxi Ball Mold (Steel) Along with Several others in All Calibers they Made them in (Except the .32) The Old Box it came in...

www.modernmuzzleloader.com

 

[John]

TC 370 gr Maxi ball will shoot through an elk. It also gets full penetration on 10" aspen trees @ 60 yards. I never sized a muzzleloader bullet. I liked the smaller sizes of the TC molds as they were small enough to load through fouling. Sabots are illegal to hunt with in MT. 50 cal rb's are killing machines. I wouldn't go heavier for deer.

 

[Bsharp]

This may be a year old, but this is good info that I copied from Idaholewis:

"Sizers for Target use, and Hunting use. For target use in a controlled environment (Shooting Bench) i prefer my bullets to “Bore Ride” so in my .50 Cal with .501 Bore, i size my bullets to .500, This way they just “Kiss” the Rifling on the Way down. But for hunting i want a Good tight fitting bullet that will NOT budge off the Powder Charge unless i ask it to! (Pull the trigger)



In conclusion, If i had known then what I know now (1-40 Alloy) i would NOT have had these Few molds cut this Large oversize, there was simply no need. For my .50 I would have went .503 all Bands, This would have made the Sizing a bit easier. Though I don’t have any problems Sizing these oversize bullets as it is, I lube them well and they Slide right through no problem! I have several rifles of all Calibers, and each has it’s own unique Sizing needs, the Largest 50 Bore i work with is .503, i run my bullets through a .504 For this Rifle. If you are only working with 1, or 2 Rifles this makes it much easier, if you know the Bore diameters (Say .501, and .502) you would be PERFECT with a Mold Cut to drop bullets at .503-.504 then Lube and push them through a .502-.503 Sizer

Hope this clears this up, and makes sense. Pure lead was my Problem from the Very beginning! After switching to 1-40 Alloy I solved the “Loosening” problem, But i had already had 3 oversize Band Molds Made. After going to 1-40 Alloy I have not looked back at pure lead again, in fact I don’t want any of it! Look at our World Class BPCR shooters, The VERY LARGE majority of them use at least 1-30, With 1-20 and 1-16 Alloys being the most popular. If pure lead was so great, Those guy’s would DEFINITELY be using it! But fact is they are NOT, and these guy’s compete to 1,000 Yards. Accuracy is EVERYTHING to them!! And they get just that with the Harder Alloys



AWESOME Stuff!! For Target i prefer my Bullets to “Bore/Land Ride” I size them so they just “Kiss” the Rifling on the Way down, My Thumb and index Finger on the Range Rod is all that’s needed to push them Down.



For a Hunting Bullet i prefer a Much Snugger Fit, I want to know that my Bullet will stay seated firmly on the Powder Charge, a good Rule of Thumb is .002 Over Bore Diameter with a Pure Lead Bullet, .001 over with 1-40 Alloy. This really depends on the Bore? They are each a Bit different in their Needs. My advice is to Spend the Money and buy an Adjustable Sizer Die, This way you can size whatever you want/need? They are expensive, But WELL worth it :lewis: I chose Hankins Due to them being Stainless Steel, I lube my Lead Bullets before Sizing (IMPORTANT that you do this!) I use RCBS Case Lube 2 and an RCBS Lube Pad (Same as you use for Brass Cartridge Cases) RCBS Case Lube 2 is a Water base Lube, It is IMPORTANT that you clean the Die Thoroughly, and Lubricate with a Rust preventative (a good gun oil) Before Storing away. This is PRECISELY why i went with The Stainless Steel Hankins Adjustable Sizer, Stainless is less prone to Rust/Corrosion"

 

[358156 hp]

I see that Lewis hasn't posted a new video to YT for about a year, I hope nothing has befallen him. He's quite a guy...

 

[Tomme boy]

I think he got fed up with the people on youtube and his forum He does not post much there either. I have been out 2 times with these molds and both time I ran into severe fouling and not being able to get the bullet seated. I think it is the Swiss powder as everyone says it is very dirty if you try to run things hot. I got the 415i mold and a 345gr version of it. I have not been back out with it. Maybe once it starts to cool off

 

[L Ross]

I think he got fed up with the people on youtube and his forum He does not post much there either. I have been out 2 times with these molds and both time I ran into severe fouling and not being able to get the bullet seated. I think it is the Swiss powder as everyone says it is very dirty if you try to run things hot. I got the 415i mold and a 345gr version of it. I have not been back out with it. Maybe once it starts to cool off

Boy, I don't know, Swiss has always been the gold standard for me, with Olde Einsford a close second best. The worst was Goex, but even that was useable. Then again I don't shoot bullets in a muzzle loader, I shoot patched round balls.
Just picked up a cap & ball repro 1860 revolver last weekend. My good friend, Big Goose, added coin silver to the front sight to bring the point of impact down to spot on at 25 yards. If it was legal in Minnesota this revolver could have killed a doe at about 25 to 30 yards. 28 grains of 3 fg and a thru and thru wound with a decent exit hole. If it had been shot it would not have gone any farther than most other guns. 25 to 30 yard death run with blood trail.
I shot it one handed at 25 yards and had three hits for three shots. I shot one target, knocked it down, stood it back up and knocked it down again. Two shots, 1 1/2" apart. I needed two hands to hit small buffalo silhouettes at 50 yards. One handed I hit it in the lower back leg.
As Steve Earle sang in the "Devil's Right Hand, "Shoots as fast as lightning but it loads a mite slow." I cannot think of a revolver that feels better in my hand.
Oh, speakin' of muzzle loader bullets, I watched one of Big Goose's adult sons running an original 1861 Springfield rifle musket at the buffalo shoot. He was standing up, using a tripod of limbs lashed together, and he embarrassed some of the $3,000.00 Sharps MVA Soule tang sighted, cross stick cartridge shooters.