My .44-40 bullet designed for use with Lee Factory Crimp

[CamoWhamo]

I've been experimenting with different bullets in my .44-40's for several years, always searching for something that's easy to load and accurate.

I have come to the conclusion that John Korts' excellent design in the form of Accurate Molds 43-215C and 43-220C has proven to be the most accurate. I don't know why but something about the length and the nose profile seems to be conducive for good accuracy. However the deep narrow crimp groove and the nose being smaller than the driving bands has always been a minor annoyance in trying to get an effective crimp. I've used roll crimp, Redding Profile Crimp, Lee Factory crimp and taper crimp.
Roll was the best but needed to be quite heavy to get under the nose when the bullets were oversized for my bores (.430-.431). I was always concerned this was damaging the case mouths.

I experimented with an angled crimp groove which became the 43-220CC. It worked ok and became my standard bullet.

I was making up some ammo with Hornady XTP's using the Lee Factory Crimp die. On the .44-40 the Lee FCD is the collet "squeeze" type of crimp die. I was really impressed how well Lee crimp fit in the cannelure of the jacketed bullets and that got me thinking if a cast bullet with a crimp groove made to the same dimensions as a cannelure would work.

I came up with the 43-219M which is basically a 43-215C with the crimp groove widened and shallowed. The nose was widened slightly to match the driving bands.
I took a little bit of length out of the lube groove to compensate for the wider crimp groove. I also made it shallower for smokeless loads. If you want to use the design with black powder you could easily specify a deeper lube groove.

Tom added the design to the catalog. I promptly ordered one and 2 weeks later i was casting with it.

The bullets came out looking great, weighing an average of 223gn naked. I loaded a few up and am really happy how well the Lee crimp fits the groove.

I shot a few groups with them and found them to be every bit as accurate as the 43-220C so i was very pleased with the results.

While loading up some more this weekend i made a few with the Hornady Cowboy seating die. This die is a taper crimp and it worked great with the shallower crimp groove. I would even say that the taper crimp from the Hornday die looks better than the Lee crimp but either are great.

 

[Walks]

I think I have finally found the .44-40 Rifle bullet I've been looking for. For 40+yrs.

Looks good, Real GOOD !

 

[smokeywolf]

Been looking for a good candidate for 44-40s in both Model '73 and '92 (Winchesters of course); this might be the one.

 

[fiver]

this is the one I have been using in my 44-40.
200gr's, from magma engineering, but I have to bump swage it to 430 from the original 428.

 

[oscarflytyer]

guess I got lucky. a Lee 429-200-RF that drops at ~430 (have to confirm) and ~215 grns and fits/works perfectly in my Uberti 44 WCF revolver (and Ruger 44 SPC!). Funny thing, bought for the 44 SPC and was going to sell it couple times and never did. Then got the 44 WCF...

 

[Walks]

I always feel I'm in a minority here, when we talk about bullet diameters in the Uberti .44-40 rifles.
The 2 1873's (carbine & rifle) I have were made in the late 1980's. Both of them slug at .4275 & .427 respective.
Maybe they were both made at the end of the reamers life, even though they were purchased a year apart.

Fiver,
That Magma bullet of yours ? I shot a heck of a lot of the 225gr version. When ever I ran short of the Lyman #42798. For some reason the first ones I bought hit the same place on an 8" gong at 50yrds with 1/2 a grain less of Unique.
There weren't many choices in store-bought Cowboy Bullets in the late 1980's. You took what you could get.

 

[fiver]

yeah, back then it was pretty much make it or just about forget it.
my Pop was never one for patience and bought a master caster and a Star and told me to make him some bullets after seeing me cast and lube with a 4500
never could convince him I could cast faster by hand even using a ladle.

he stopped by on the G-boy's birthday and seen I made a hand casting bottom pour pot out of one of the master casters, and a ladle pour pot out of the other, and he just about had an aneurism.
I reminded him I paid him cash money for all the casting stuff 20 sumthin years back and he finally calmed down.

 

[L Ross]

yeah, back then it was pretty much make it or just about forget it.
my Pop was never one for patience and bought a master caster and a Star and told me to make him some bullets after seeing me cast and lube with a 4500
never could convince him I could cast faster by hand even using a ladle.

he stopped by on the G-boy's birthday and seen I made a hand casting bottom pour pot out of one of the master casters, and a ladle pour pot out of the other, and he just about had an aneurism.
I reminded him I paid him cash money for all the casting stuff 20 sumthin years back and he finally calmed down.

Well I'm not exactly stunned by your assertion that you can cast faster by hand than with the Master Caster, but seein' as I have one, and do hand cast bottom pour, hand cast ladle, and Master Cast, let's say I'm skeptical. My Master Caster is a joy to use and bullets accumulate at a rapid rate.
Oh, you know, I wasn't thinkin' 6 cavity moulds though for hand casting.

 

[Walks]

When I was a Kid, early 1960's. We had Casting and Reloading "Parties" in our garage. Jan, Feb & March. My Dad had a 100lb plumbers Pot and He and My uncle would stand on either side dipper casting 8-10 cavity H&G molds. They would fill and hand back to My older Brothers, who would bust the molds open and dump the bullets.. My little brother and I would hand back the empty molds, 4-5 molds for each caster.

The loading bench had 3 Loading Presses mounted and there were other presses set on a doubled plywood base that could be mounted using "tee nuts" to the bench. I think the Stars for .38 & .45 were the only Permanent residents. And the Star Lube-Sizer too.

My Dad would Cast/Load his Match ammo when He was ALONE in the garage. And The Good Lord help anyone who bothered him, even Mom.
I don't think Automated Casting Machines were available back then, else we would have had 2 or 3.

 

[CZ93X62]

44/40 WCF throat and groove diameters can and do vary a bit. My 1897-made Win '73 carbine and my 2012-vintage Uberti Cattleman both dote upon castings sized at .429", so I got VERY lucky on two example made 115 years apart both accepting loads from one another. If only my 32/20s got along that well.

I have no doubts that the bullet under discussion here would work well in my arms. I had GREAT luck using SAECO #446 (200 grain RFN) so far, and I don't look gift horses like that in the mouth.

 

[smokeywolf]

You're fortunate Al. My '73 and '92 Winchesters, one pre-turn of the century, one post, differ by .004". The '73 is .432 and change. Figure if I can find a mould that drops a bullet good enough to load and shoot "as cast", I might be able to use the same mould for both.

 

[L Ross]

You're fortunate Al. My '73 and '92 Winchesters, one pre-turn of the century, one post, differ by .004". The '73 is .432 and change. Figure if I can find a mould that drops a bullet good enough to load and shoot "as cast", I might be able to use the same mould for both.

The Big Lube .44 I bought recently drops at 200 grains and .433" as cast with a fairly soft alloy.

 

[Outpost75]

Good looking bullet!

I found that the Lee Factory Crimp Die in .44-40 reduced bullet diameter inside the case to .4285" when using Starline brass.
My 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter and 1920 Colt New Service, as well as my El Tigre carbine all shoot best with .430" bullet diameter.
I replaced the LFC die with a Redding Profile Crimp die for .44-40 and this works much better for me. Your mileage may vary.

 

[smokeywolf]

Thanks L Ross. The '73 will definately require something south of 10 BHN pushed along by some Unique, 5744 or maybe even a duplex of 4759 and double f.

 

[Walks]

My Dad had a 1911 '92 Carbine that really needed the old Lyman #42498. Mine from 1932 measured a .427bore and was rechambered to .44Mag sometime before I bought it in 1979. Has a 19 1/2" bbl. The old front was covered by the front band. I really got took on that deal. Too bad I sold it before I started Cowboy Shooting, I think.

My Rossi 92 Rifle shoots fine with .429 bullets, while a Uberti SA in .44-40 shoots fine with .428dia. Another Uberti SA in .44Spl purchased at the same time from the same Importer measures .430dia. That Uberti .44Spl has the largest bore diameter of any .44 Caliber I own that is NOT a .44Mag.

.44Cal can be a real pain in the neck.

 

[CamoWhamo]

Good looking bullet!

I found that the Lee Factory Crimp Die in .44-40 reduced bullet diameter inside the case to .4285" when using Starline brass.
My 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter and 1920 Colt New Service, as well as my El Tigre carbine all shoot best with .430" bullet diameter.
I replaced the LFC die with a Redding Profile Crimp die for .44-40 and this works much better for me. Your mileage may vary.

Hi Outcast, I've got a Profile crimp die but my die won't even accept rounds loaded with .430 bullets. Redding are not alone there.
Quite a few dies are made with SAAMI spec or jacketed bullets in mind so when a cartridge is loaded with an oversized bullet the case neck is too lage for the dies.
I have checked a half dozen die sets and the only 44-40 seating die that will accept larger bullets/case necks out of the box is the Hornady Cowboy die. The Lee is soft steel so is easily honed out to size while others like RCBS are hardened and take a lot of effort to modify.

I could write a thesis on the difference between .44-40 dies. There is so much difference between the brands.
It has taken me a lot of testing to come to the combination that i have now and is giving me great results at the target.

 

[L Ross]

Hi Outcast, I've got a Profile crimp die but my die won't even accept rounds loaded with .430 bullets. Redding are not alone there.
Quite a few dies are made with SAAMI spec or jacketed bullets in mind so when a cartridge is loaded with an oversized bullet the case neck is too lage for the dies.
I have checked a half dozen die sets and the only 44-40 seating die that will accept larger bullets/case necks out of the box is the Hornady Cowboy die. The Lee is soft steel so is easily honed out to size while others like RCBS are hardened and take a lot of effort to modify.

I could write a thesis on the difference between .44-40 dies. There is so much difference between the brands.
It has taken me a lot of testing to come to the combination that i have now and is giving me great results at the target.

I have also seen some differences in 44 w.c.f. dies etc. thus far I have gotten away with just loading and shooting .430/.431" 200 gr. bullets always cast pretty soft. My foray into the world of 38 w.c.f. is just as interesting. I don't think any of the fired brass resembles one another from 5 different guns, 4 revolvers and 1 rifle. My solution is just to reload them with RCBS Cowboy dies, stick a .402" 180 gr. bullet and shoot.

 

[fiver]

they are both characters when it comes to chamber dimensions, and where the shoulder is located on a 38-40 is more a guess than a measurement.

I use a 45 colt die to seat my 44-40 bullets then hit the Redding seat die to crimp.
I'm not even sure I'm using the crimp more like bumping the lower neck portion of the die to flatten out the case mouth and turn it in a hair.

 

[CamoWhamo]

they are both characters when it comes to chamber dimensions, and where the shoulder is located on a 38-40 is more a guess than a measurement.

I use a 45 colt die to seat my 44-40 bullets then hit the Redding seat die to crimp.
I'm not even sure I'm using the crimp more like bumping the lower neck portion of the die to flatten out the case mouth and turn it in a hair.

True, of the die sets i've checked in .44-40 only Lee and Redding match the SAAMI dimensions and the chambers of my Miroku made Winchesters.
Hornady, Lyman and RCBS have the shoulder quite a bit forward and the Australian made Simplex dies push the shoulder way back.

My Lee die is so loose that cases sized in most of the others will fall into it. It barely touches the brass fired in my rifles which is great for me because i'm not overworking the brass. My starline brass has been loaded 10 times and still looks as good as new and never needed trimming.

The Profile crimp die has 2 stages of crimp, It starts with a taper crimp and if you go deeper it finishes with the roll crimp so if you're only just touching the case it's probably taking the flare out and maybe a slight taper crimp.

 

[Walks]

Back before Cowboy Shooting became really Popular, pre 1990. RCBS made two different die sets for .44-40, one for Cast or Lead bullets and one for Jacketed.
I had to buy the Lead bullet set direct as the set that went out to Distributers was for Jacketed bullets.

I have 5 different die sets for .44-40. The one I use the most is an old Lyman All-American from the early 1960's. It sizes the cases down enough that they will chamber in My 1908 Colt SAA. It has the M-Die and a seat/crimp die that seats and crimps the .428Dia #42798 absolutely perfect.

It was bought along with my Win 1892 carbine, the one I thought was .44-40 and was rechambered to .44Mag. And sat unused until I got a Uberti 1873, at which time I also got beat up Colt SAA. Only ammo loaded with those old Lyman dies will fit in the old Colt. It also has .427/.428 chamber mouths.

The .44-40 Is a pain in the neck. In particular if you have guns from different manufacturers and Era's.

The .38-40 My Dad wouldn't mess with. Guess his previous experiences clouded his feelings for the Cartridge.
As a matter of fact my brother and I found an old BP
SAA wrapped in oilcloth and stashed inside a pre-war Radio in the garage of a old house Dad had just bought. He had the revolver converted from .38WCF to .45Colt, wouldn't consider keeping it original. This was back in the early 1960's.