Need advice on simple lube

[GSPguy]

I am just about out of FWFL. I made a large batch back when Felix was still with us. I am not an experimenter, I am a recipe follower.

So here is my question, do I make another batch of Felix lube or do I try simple lube. I have always liked the way 2 cycle oil has worked on my Moulds. The oil evaporated and left a coating behind a that continued to act as lube.

One time many years ago I ask Felix about replacing the castor oil with 2 cycle and of course I got the answer try it and let us know. The one thing that he did say is to make sure what ever the oil I used was to make sure that bore cleaner would clean it.

I have read just about every thread that has been posted here an the CB site. So I do understand about half of what happens with lube but only half at best.

Will there be any advantages to cooking 2 cycle oil with transmission fluid using ivory soap?

What brands of 2 cycle oil to use? I picked up some super tech at wallyworld and it was thin and smelled of distillates. That’s why I am asking about cooking it. I think think the distillates needs to be cooked off.

I want a lube that stands up to heat a little better than the original FWFL. I guess I could just add paraffin or some carnauba to “thicken” it up but I can do the same with simple lube too.

I know what am I shooting? Mostly 357 mag, 45 acp, 25/20. I also know about any thing will work, but while I am making lube I am lube I want to make the best I can.

I am starting to PC too but I believe there is a place for a wax lube too.

Fiver and Gear, I mean Ian, and crew please help!

 

[Brad]

Some microwax, of a higher melt point, would help it handle heat better. It also helps it stick to bullets and have some cohesive strength.

 

[fiver]

what you got on hand?
you could just replace some of the beeswax with some micro-wax or add about 3-4% carnuba to the mix.
either one will raise the melt point slightly.

you don't need to cook down the 2 stroke oil nor the ATF.
believe it or not ATF is basically the synthetic reverse of bees-wax so it is already absorbed into the wax on a lower level than just being a carried oil.
the 2-stroke is similar in makeup, but with a different base, about all it really ends up doing is changing the color of the lube when it's all said and done.
anyway heating them and adding in some soap won't really make a homogenous mixture there is too many carbon and alcohol chains in the mix and nothing for the soap to really do anything to.
not that adding some Ivory to the mix will hurt anything, it just won't do anything besides add some stearates to the mix.

now if you melted the Vaseline and atf/2-stroke mix, then added the soap to that, it will make a very lightly cross linked gel that you can add to the melted wax.

anyway.
as is just following the melt stir and pour out method of simple lube will give you a lube quite close in texture, tact, and viscosity to Felix lube, just without all the cooking and effort.

 

[waco]

Glen’s black is simple and effective. Only two ingredients.

 

[freebullet]

If I run out of Felix lube I'd make more. Not only does it work wonderful for most sane cast stuff but the toxicity of its components, or lack of is something the other common homebrew lubes can't claim. Something to think about.

 

[Ian]

Simple lube won't hold up in the heat as well as FWFL. Fiver is right, the soap won't bond well to the lube once it's mixed because there's ionically no room, what you get is separation layers and a foam scum on top. It can be mixed physically in the gravy stage but you haven't gained anything.

If you need something with better heat storage tolerance than FWFL, the simolest thing would be substitute about 1/3 high-temperature microwax fir the beeswax, but you'll have to adjust the viscosity with more mineral oil. FWFL excels in hot weather shooting conditions and in hot barrels, far better than most lube recipes or commercial concoctions. The downside is it melts at about 140⁰ and when it melts, it really melts. I lost a whole muffin of it down the defrost ducts of my old Suburban while doing an aggressive form of the "window sill test" to check for castor sweat. Went out at lunch to check and it was gone off the paper plate, barely a wet spot on the plate. The truck smelled good ever after though.

Hot storage is the Achilles heel of most all wax-based lubes. The final iterations of the SL series solved that once and for all, but are difficult to make.

There is one repeatable, simple, easy, inexpensive, and marvelously effective cast bullet lubricant that is absolutely temperature insensitive:

 

[GSPguy]

So FWFL it is. I do have some soy wax on hand, will that work? I do see microwax on Amazon. Is there a certain type to get?

Any advantage or disadvantage in replacing the castor oil with 2 cycle in FWFL?

I do agree PC seem to be the best solution. The reason I am still lubing some is that my gold cup seems to do better with softer bullets that are lubed.

I PCd some of the same bullets that I shoot lubed in my gold cup an got fowling. That doesn’t happen with FWFL. The alloy was 50/50 COWW and soft lead. I did just shoot 50 rounds of 15 BHN PC bullets and it seems to have done better but I have not wiped the bore yet. The bore has more powder fowling but I hoping that will wipe out easy.

 

[Brad]

You can use softer alloy with PC as well. Ian has mentioned it before and I agree that in a 45 ACP sizing to .451 with a PC bullet often reduces leading. My belief is that the throat in some barrels scrapes some of the PC off the side of the bullet and gas cutting occurs,

In FWFL I would use the castor oil as usual. I would replace maybe 1/4 of the beeswax with microwax. Leave the soy wax out, it often melts lower rather than higher. You could make a batch with the regular recipe and simply add an ounce of microwax to the mix. Might need a small addition of Vaseline or Mineral oil to get the viscosity you desire.

You can easily find microwax locally by looking for smile wax. This is the stuff kids use on braces to prevent mouth sores. Might spend 4 bucks for a few small sticks but that is plenty for a batch of Felix lube. Beats having a box with 10 pounds of it in the house.....

 

[GSPguy]

Brad,

I thought that the crimp could be breaking the PAC on my softer bullets and that was causing my problem.

 

[L Ross]

Where's the love for Ben's Red? I hate making lube, but I'll make more Ben's when I run out.

 

[GSPguy]

L Ross,

I just have never used it. How does it compare to FWFL?

 

[Rex]

For years I used Beeswax/Vaseline starting with 50/50 mix and adding more beeswax until I got the thickness I needed for the season...summer or winter. It worked fine but now I find it is a lot less hassle to buy something from White Label Lube.

 

[Brad]

Bens lube is also very good. A bit softer than I prefer so I added microwax to mine to stiffen it and also make it more cohesive. I find it stays in the grooves better.

Lubes that work well, no leading and decent accuracy, are a dime a dozen. It is getting one that works in extremes of hot and cold that is that hard part.

 

[Ian]

Where's the love for Ben's Red?

He wants a lube that stands up a little better in the heat than FWFL. BR isn't it.

Brad gave excellent advice above about bumping FWFL with some microwax. Soy has its place but not for what we are trying to do here. Two-stroke oil eliminates the need for the soap, but has the opposite polar effect of Castor. Believe me, castor oil and soap, together with the paraffin-based viscocity modifiers, is what makes FWFL work its magic. If you substitute the castor oil out, you change the whole essence of the lube.

 

[Brad]

I have made FWFL with castor wax instead of castor oil. Seems to work well but I never gave it a real stress test. Goal was to prevent any chance of oil bleeding out.

Waco gives good advice as well. Glen has a good lube and it works very well for him. If Waco says it is working for him then I certainly would listen. I may make some in the future but will likely add a little microwax.

Why do I like microwax? It adds a flexibility and slight tackiness to the lube. Paraffin is crumbly, beeswax is t quite as bad. Microwax bends and pulls rather than breaks. It makes the lube in the groove cohesive so it is almost like a little O ring that doesn’t easily fall or get pulled from the groove.

 

[fiver]

I hope Waco isn't thinking that black lube I sent him is Glens mixture.
what I sent him was my moly complex [airc version 1 and 2 mixed 50-50] which is pretty far away in actual makeup [and I would assume viscosity] from Glens lithi-bee lube.
the moly complex is wood pecker lip hard until it's put under pressure and a little heat.

 

[waco]

I hope Waco isn't thinking that black lube I sent him is Glens mixture.
what I sent him was my moly complex [airc version 1 and 2 mixed 50-50] which is pretty far away in actual makeup [and I would assume viscosity] from Glens lithi-bee lube.
the moly complex is wood pecker lip hard until it's put under pressure and a little heat.

I knew the stuff in the Star was the moly complex. I made a batch of Glen's lube sometime back and ran it in my 450.

 

[RBHarter]

Darrs is pretty simple . Mine with more paraffin and STP has worked very well also .
1/1# paraffin /Vaseline and 1 tblsp STP oil treatment
Mine
18oz paraffin
14 oz Vaseline
3 tblsp STP oil treatment .
It's still a little bit greasy over 90° but it doesn't break down up past 95° and hasn't let me down into the low 30s . I've run it up to 2600 fps . It did let me down once in a brand new 223 1-8" . But cleaned up after a few jackets and a pre lube mop . No shooting that one up to speed anytime soon .

 

[GSPguy]

Ian,
Would you explain the difference in castor oil and 2 cycle? I know that castor oil has been used as a type of 2 stroke oil. So I have assumed the the generic blue 2 cycle oil was a castor oil with additives to make it perform better.

In my mind I have considered a bullet going down a gun barrel being powered by a gas pressure a one direction engine. So I hope you can see how I put 2 and 2 together. I am sure that in this case they don’t equal 4.

 

[Ian]

Two-cycle oils come in two flavors, TCW3 and regular. The difference is the ash content and use (marine, snowmobile, chainsaw, etc.) Of these two type ratings it can be castor-based (rare), petroleum, diester or polyolester, or full-synthetic polyalphaolephin (think full-synthetic engine oil like Amzoil or Mobil 1). Castor oil has a different polarity from any other oil and it wicks TOWARD heat instead of away from it like the others. Castor does not burn in an engine and doesn't burn much if any in a rifle. Blowing out the exhaust rather than burning cleanly away is why castor is only used in some limited racing applications and in model airplane engines running in nitromethane.

All of the two-cycle additives are diluted with naptha so they will easily dissolve in fuel. If you boil off the solvent the remaining oil is quite viscuous, almost like gear oil.