New 230 TC mold

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
I might have confused you with my text in Post #69 with the "T/C" reference--I meant "tungsten-carbide", and was alluding to a method to open up and polish its working surface. I know that tungsten-carbide is hard stuff to work, I am thinking I may need to relieve .001" radially to get the desired diameter outcome.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Gonna need diamond grit to change the dimensions of tungsten carbide. There are the "green wheels" which
will grind it for tool bits, but not in a format readily applicable to a small diam increase. Closest would
probably be a small diam, high speed green grinding bit (think dremel-y) in a lathe toolpost grinder.
Or lap with diamond paste. Not exactly cheap stuff, but not as bad as I had guessed.


tc = taper crimp or t/c = tungsten carbide........OK, easy to cross wires. :embarrassed:
 
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CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
Hijo la......that Redding dual-diameter tungsten-carbide sizer die might be the most efficient route to accomplishing the task at hand--proper sizing to OEM specs in the interest of case life. I have some R&D in the shop when I get home.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
Not just case life, but potential accuracy improvement in some instances where a better fit of case to chamber is aiming the bullet more straight before firing instead of taking up a lot of available slack to one side of the chamber due to extractor/ejector pressure or gravity.
 
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CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
Good points, Ian. "Coke-Bottled" brass annoys me to no end. 44 Mag, 45 Colt, and 45 ACP have been re-routed in this manner, maybe some change can be effected with the 40 and 10.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Hmmm. .45 ACP is a truly parallel sided case. Shouldn't need anything special in a carbide die to get
the straight wall sized correctly, unless the die is just sizing too small.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
No, it isn't Bill, the case body has .003" taper and the chamber has about .005".
 

Ole_270

Active Member
Got the crimping die from Brad, thanks Brad.
Setup and crimped some 230TC loads I had seated to .468, worked fine. Cases were Starline. Dug out the Chronograph and tested a few. I'm about to give up on Universal in this combo. I had to go nearly a full grain over Ian's load to reach 825fps. Since W-W whitebox hardball runs 825 in this deep throated barrel, it's dropping roughly 25 fps from nominal. 5.4 HP-38 matches the 825 with nearly the same velocity drop over book value. The fact that Universal is so far off is getting spooky. Even if the chronograph was off, the other two loads should be affected about the same and they weren't.
Only showed about 10-15 fps difference in lubed bullets compared to PC. Had some leading, but I think that's coming from the PC bullets, this barrel has been bad about that. Just to be sure I seated and crimped a soft un-PC'd bullet and measured it after pulling it with an impact puller. No change in diameter, so my cases aren't sizing the bullet down. I use a NOE expander and I'm getting .450 inside case diameter before seating. I don't have pin gages, but used Starrett telescope gages, Small Hole gages and Micrometer as well as a very accurate 8" Mitutoyo caliper. All agreed on the .450 I.D.
I'll play a bit more with HP-38, 800X and maybe longshot to see how they compare.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Brad gets a round of applause!:D:)

Glad you have the crimp working, at least. IME, Titegroup and BE both do excellent work in .45 ACP
with 200 SWCs.
 
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CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
Bill--

The 1980-vintage RCBS 45 ACP tungsten-carbide sizer die was sizing cases to .466" (R-P) and .467" (W-W). THAT isb way too small. Even the RCBS expander spud (.448") caused Coke-bottling in brass; the .450"/.454" Lyman multi-charge spud aggravated this condition even further.

This was not the worst example of excessively-undersized brass among my tool collection. I started reloading 45 Colt in the mid-1980s, and bought an RCBS die set that included a tungsten-carbide sizing die. In short, that die was sizing the case down to .469" at a point .200" above the base. The SAAMI spec at that point is .478". TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE--case life was 4-5 shots before longitudinal cracks appeared. And Coke-bottled? GROSSLY SO.

I bought an RCBS steel sizer die, which does a MUCH MORE SAAMI-ADHERENT job of sizing my 45 Colt brass. My brass now lasts 12-15 firings, and case loss is due to cracking at the mouth from repeated roll-crimping. This I can live with. I added a steel RCBS sizer die to my 44 Magnum die set, with similar end results.

That undersizing 45 Colt die now serves as my primary sizing die for 45 ACP, where its .469" diametric outcome on W-W 45 ACP cases runs flawlessly in all of my 45 ACP self-loaders.
 
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Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Without looking at the specs, I had thought that the .45 ACP was straight .470, so .467 doesn't seem too bad.

As to .45 Colt, I had the same issue, it is actually a slightly tapered case , which is often overlooked. I got an old steel RCBS set
and the lubing is less convenient, but the ammo is much more satisfactory. No question that .45 Colt has issues with a single ring
carbide sizer, but less so in my experience with .45 ACP and .44 Mag/Spl, which (IIRC) are straight case designs.

But, I can see that .469 is better for ACP.

Bill
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Just a footnote in case I didn't mention it before . I shoot a Colts chamber that is huge in a Rossi 92' . In my messing around I found that a Lee 45 ACP FCD with the internals removed made a fine sizer for those . It only takes those bodies down to .484 with current life brass but it's more than enough for the .490 chamber base . The .486 chamber mouth is happy and it's generally enough to crimp the bullet . I also short size everything I can .
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
I had thought that the .45 ACP was straight .470, so .467 doesn't seem too bad.
It's .4732" behind the crimp and .476" in front of the extractor groove. However, that's up to .006" minus, so it could be anything in between. Most of my cast loads come out about .473" behind the crimp, so .467" crimp at the mouth is pretty radical.

The carbide sizing die puts the whole case down to about .466" just above the extractor groove, so the case is actually .013" smaller than a MINIMUM chamber at the rear. Then expand the top third of the case, stuff a .451"+ bullet in there, and you should be able to start seeing the problem.....

I've had a kaboom due to bullet set-back with really soft bullets and a custom expander that gave inadequate case tension on the bullet. The only real solution is a tapered steel die or a two-diameter sizing die which will just "QC check" the body to something like .475" and the "neck" to .468-9". Why it's so difficult to make a tapered carbide insert I couldn't say, but that would be the best possible solution.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
Not a matter of difficulty but rather economics.
Cheaper to make dies like they do now and 99.9999% of shooters will never know the difference.
 

358156 hp

Well-Known Member
RCBS makes a 45 Colt .454 diameter carbide die set, I have one around here somewhere. That or a Cowboy die set might spare 45 ACP cases the indignity of undersizing. I've never considered using them for this.

Must 'spermint
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
I tried the LEE .45 Colt sizer for .45 ACP and IIRC it wouldn't give enough bullet pull with SOME brass, easy to get fooled with mixed headstamps if you don't happen to find and check the thinnest case in the lot.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Hmm. My Dillon dies have been making really satisfactory .45 ACP ammo for decades. I'll check the
sized diam when I get home, but from memory my ammo .470, but "by my memory" is NOT reliable,
and I will check it.

Bill
 
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Ian

Well-Known Member
.470" ahead of the extractor groove would be near the tight end of the tolerance spec and right in the middle of the tolerance at the base of the crimp.
 

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
With 45 ACP--40 S&W--10mm--and 9mm, I want the dies I am using to produce the finished case diameters that my carry loads come out of their boxes with. My 45 ACP carry ammo (WWB 230 JHP) are tapered--.474" +/- .0005" at the front of the extractor groove and .471" +/- .0005" at the case mouth. Tungsten-carbide single-ring sizing dies produce an approximation of SAAMI that works most of the time. I want the 40 and 10 to have the same case life, quality control, and reliability standards of reloaded ammo to practice with that I have had for almost 40 years in 45 ACP and about 35 years with the 9mm.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Actually, that is a totally realistic expectation, Al. I know my .45 ACP ammo from my 550 Dillon is absolutely
reliable ammo. So far, my 9mm ammo is pretty reliable too with the Lee 122 Truncated Cone, and whatever dies
(I think Dillon) are in the 550 for 9mm. I have loaded a grand total of 10 rds of .40 so far.....so still very much
an exploratory situation with me on that one. I got Hornady dies.

Bill