New lathe "kit" fresh from Shanghai

[Snakeoil]

As I read these posts, I wonder how many people buy these thinking, "It's a kit, just have to put it together".

My buddy Lance is always finding old machine tools that he gets working again. He's got a horz mill that I think is a Bridgeport. It might be another old New England machinery name. Anyway, he called them about parts and it was so old that they had no record of ever making it.

So, one of his finds is a Chinese lathe that I suspect is about the same size or a big bigger than Ian's "kit". I think it was sold by that tool company that used to sell Bridgeport knock-offs. I'm drawing a blank on their name right now. What triggered my memory was the variable speed controls on the headstock. When Lance got it, the wiring was a mess and he freely admits his limitations with controls systems. Some how he tracked down the maker and managed to get a wiring diagram for the thing. It's got a bunch of relays in the electrical cabinet in the back. I looked at the diagram and it took a while to study it and figure out how the damn thing worked. Part of the problem was what I saw in the diagram did not make sense to me. I could not see how it could work as I suspected it should if it were wired like that diagram. So, I compared what was still terminated on the lathe to the diagram and the lathe agreed with me more than it did with the diagram. I worked my way thru it slowly and then came the moment of truth. On with the power, no arcs or smoke and hitting the on and jog buttons did what they were supposed to and it ran nicely. If I remember right, this one had a bad lead screw. He found one on line somewhere, directly from China for small money. Might saddle up the Harley and take a ride over to his shop today and if I do, I'll snap some photos of the lathe. Might be the granpa or at least older brother to Ian's.

UPDATE: ENCO is the outfit that sold the Bridgeport knockoffs.

 

[smokeywolf]

My buddy Lance is always finding old machine tools that he gets working again. He's got a horz mill that I think is a Bridgeport. It might be another old New England machinery name. Anyway, he called them about parts and it was so old that they had no record of ever making it.

In the MGM Studios Machine Shop, we had an old Hardinge Cataract Toolroom lathe that needed a part, I think for the tailstock. This was in the '70s nearly 10 years before I went to work there. They called Hardinge and were asked the serial number. Couldn't find one, so Hardinge sent a local rep out to look it over. Turned out it was manufactured in the late 1800s in Chicago, before the company was moved to Elmira, NY; they figured 1898. It had no serial number cast or stamped into the bed.
The lathe was in very good condition overall and the rep made an offer on the lathe on behalf of the company. Said they wanted it for their company museum.
Boss gave an emphatic no and the part was fabricated by the shop.

 

[Ian]

These wholesaler Chinese metric mini-lathes are definitely not good for much of anything right out of the box. Instead of the LPS-3 or Linebacker anti-rust wax coating, they just leave all the maching oil and grit all over all the parts and assemble it. I found Petrobond and iron filings packed behind the headstock bearing races and in every nook and cranny of the machine, especially in the gears, ways, and gibs. I didn't move anything back and forth except the minimum necessary to take it apart for risk of scoring and scratching the ground surfaces. I'll reiterate: pay more for Grizzly, PM, or Jet if you aren't prepared to rebuild the machine from scratch. I had low expectations and was and am only a little disappointed in some of what I found.

The rest of my "kit" arrived today, this one being the imperial leadscrew blank and keyed gearbox shafts. I already have obtained the headstock bearings and seals, shaft bushings and bearings, and two full 7x14 lathe metal change gear sets to complete the project.

Left to fabricate from stock are the headstock seal retainers, the banjo stud and banjo, the reverse tumbler assembly, and headstock bearing oiler system. Left to modify are the half nuts, the spindle spacer/speed sensor reluctor, and the spindle gear. I've been working overtime at the plant so it's slow going.

 

[Snakeoil]

What are you going to do for a threading dial, Ian? Can you buy one from them or adapt one from someone like Grizzly?

 

[Ian]

My Griz lathe has a 16-pitch RH leadscrew so I could use its threading dial, but it's kind of crappy so I'd like to try and make a better one. Probably use a piece of brass or aluminum for the gear, make a hob, and hob it on the lathe.

 

[Bret4207]

I've found a lot of Chinese stuff comes with grit and oil everywhere. Those HF Predator engines everyone buys absolutely need a flush and a couple of quick oil changes before serious use. Same with their generator engines. The Chinese CAN produce quality goods, they just won't do it for peanuts...like everyone else in the world.

 

[Ian]

I got to thinking last night that I don't need to make a threading dial. The dial on my Griz lathe has 16 teeth so one turn per leadscrew revolution. My quick change box will have matching output gears to the leadscrew that will be exposed on the chuck side of the headstock, iow will both turn at leadscrew speed and be clearly visible when doing threading operations. I planned to make a cover for these gears for safety and to keep chips out, but I can make a window on the cover and mark the gears themselves to use for threading. Unconventional but simple and effective and will never need to be disengaged when not in use to prevent leadscrew wear.

 

[Brad]

There goes Ian again with a novel solution to a complex problem.

 

[Bret4207]

Simple is usually better. Before lead screws, that's pretty much how it was done, at least according to my old books. Betcha it still works.

ETA- Duh! Wrote lead screws, meant threading dials. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Ian]

Turned both ends of the leadscrew blank as required, threaded for the thrust bearing adjustment nut, cut snap ring grooves and gear keyways. Clearanced the bed to make room for the 60-tooth gear and installed the leadscrew.

 

[Bret4207]

OT, but I just saw a similar Grizzly lathe on Marketplace for $200.00. No doubt some poor guy that couldn't stay on the porch lost his toys in the divorce. I briefly thought of making a try for it, but it's pretty far from me.

 

[Ian]

Now for re-boring the half-nuts. I milled a jig which captures the half nuts on their dovetails and locks them down squarely. I also milled .086" thick spacers to maintain the original gap which is critical for the correct timing and operation of the opening/closing cam and pins. I centered and squared the jig using the original leadscrew as an alignment arbor, then removed the arbor and bored the hole out to .652" for the 3/4x16 Acme threads.



Next I ground an old drill shank to the 29⁰ Acme thread form using the new leadscrew as a gauge for tip width. The only suitable boring bar I had was one that Keith B. gave me a long time ago and it worked very well in my quick-change boring bar holder.



After the cutting the threads until the leadscrew would go all the way through and have very slight clearance, I did a quick test fit on the machine. Turns out the apron gear rubs a little so I had to pull it off and turn a little relief on it. While I was there I extended the half nut cam grooves just a bit on the mill, then turned it over, marked, and re-spotted the detent holes for the detent ball and handle grubscrew. I also found a slightly larger ball bearing that fits the bore better and removed some slop from the half nut detents.

 

[Bret4207]

Man Ian, you've become quite a machinist! This also shows what can be done with the right tools at hand. I really need to get some sort of mill. The shaper is fine for a lot of stuff, but a mill shines in others. Even a small benchtop model would help out.

My wants are sure to make me poor!

 

[Snakeoil]

I looked for a small vertical mill or mill drill for years. Big ones are around, but something to put in the basement (no Bilco doors) that is also a decent machine is tough. I found a small Hardinge in a used tool shop that was pretty small and would have been perfect. I hesitated. He sold it the next day. A friend offered me a really nice machine for small money, $600, but I knew that even taken apart, it would be a bear to get into the basement by myself. Kicking myself for not buying that one, too. I think he got $1200 for it. He got a Bridgeport for his new shop.

I bought an Atlas horz mill for $250 about 15 years ago. Not as useful, but better than nothing. Got a set of collets for it so I could use end mills. Then a couple years ago, I found a guy that makes vertical attachments for that machine and bit the bullet. Paid more for the attachment than I paid for the mill. It is hobby quality from a rigidity POV, but with light cuts, gets the job done. And for the number of small jobs I do for myself and friends, it suits my needs. Although I suspect that if I had a B'port, I'd be doing a lot more small jobs.

The thing about owning machine tools is it removes your dependence on others and vendors for stuff. My South Bend 10H has pulled me and my friends out of more jams than I can remember. I have a small Atlas lathe at my camp and it has the same "save the day" history. I remember one day, putting a new boot and seals on my cousin's Mercruiser outdrive, he ham fisted the boot removal with a pry bar and broke a plastic oil feed fitting off. You have to pull the engine to replace it. We went back to my place and I machined a new barbed end from a stainless bolt and pressed it into what remained of the old plastic fitting with a pair of ChannelLocks. Problem solved. That fix is still in the boat. My point is, the machine may spend more time sitting in your shop doing nothing. But when the excrement hits the ventilator, having that machine is priceless. I always vote for spending the money now that I have seen the value over the years. A lathe is probably #2 on the list of machine tools. Drill press is #1. Mill would be #3.

 

[smokeywolf]

But when the excrement hits the ventilator, having that machine is priceless. I always vote for spending the money now that I have seen the value over the years. A lathe is probably #2 on the list of machine tools. Drill press is #1. Mill would be #3.

Many, if not most machinist tools are like a fire extinguisher; not worth a damn until you have a fire, but then, worth far, far more than the money and space they displaced.

If you get a mill with a quill, you may not need the drill press.

 

[JWFilips]

Wow ...Just Wow!

 

[Ian]

If you get a mill with a quill, you may not need the drill press.

100% true. However, just Saturday I came to the realization that a shop with a mill/drill machine can still benefit greatly from a drill press when doing multiple operations on a part because the DP can save beaucoup time on mill tooling changes.

Also, having more than one lathe available is great if one breaks and you need to make a part for it. Being able to make spur gears and splined shafts from scratch is one of my next ambition and a capability that would have gotten me out of many, many jams in the past.

Horizontal milling machines are more of a luxury than a basic requirement from my point of view. They do certain things VERY well, but not AS MANY things well or at all as a vertical mill.

Then there's the venerable shaper. A Shaper's advantage to me is that it can do things with only simple HSS tooling that a machine using rotary tooling can't unless you have or can make a special tool. It's a lot easier to grind a single-point tool than make a multi-flute cutter the shape you need. Special operations like cutting teeth on vise jaws or keyways in gears or shaft collars are where a linear machine really shines.

 

[Ian]

Not much to report but I made a little part tonight: The retainer for the dual stacked bearings on the quick-change gearbox. The leadscrew is supported by the outboard bearing and the sliding gear shaft supported by the inner one. The two shafts will rotate independently on the same axis and have a single thrust ball bearing riding in the center drilled holes where the shafts butt together. There shouldn't be any thrust loads with the spur gears but I don't want anything galling. The two shafts don't need to be on the same axis, but to save space it made sense to align them. Besides, the banjo base needs to be about on the leadscrew axis to work and it's directly on the other side of the gearbox. Offsetting even a 6001 bearing for a 12mm shaft would mean making the gearbox considerably bigger than it is and adding unneeded complexity.

 

[Bret4207]

100% true. However, just Saturday I came to the realization that a shop with a mill/drill machine can still benefit greatly from a drill press when doing multiple operations on a part because the DP can save beaucoup time on mill tooling changes.

Also, having more than one lathe available is great if one breaks and you need to make a part for it. Being able to make spur gears and splined shafts from scratch is one of my next ambition and a capability that would have gotten me out of many, many jams in the past.

Horizontal milling machines are more of a luxury than a basic requirement from my point of view. They do certain things VERY well, but not AS MANY things well or at all as a vertical mill.

Then there's the venerable shaper. A Shaper's advantage to me is that it can do things with only simple HSS tooling that a machine using rotary tooling can't unless you have or can make a special tool. It's a lot easier to grind a single-point tool than make a multi-flute cutter the shape you need. Special operations like cutting teeth on vise jaws or keyways in gears or shaft collars are where a linear machine really shines.

The shaper does excel in some operations. And a small shaper can be had for under a grand usually. You'll have more tied up in tooling and tool holders for the mill than that many times.

I think vertical mills are more desirable for most folks because the set up is more familiar. A horizontal is often easier to set up and more rigid, but it's "sideways" in some respects. An agile mind is needed sometimes!

 

[Snakeoil]

I had more than one opportunity to buy small shapers as well and always passed. Another reason to kick myself in the pants. I probably should make one of those kicking machines with the big worn-out boot on it like you saw in the cartoons as a kid. I'd get a lot of use out of it.