new to .45 acp reloading

[462]

With the Lyman 452460 and a .470" taper crimp, I was getting too many failures to feed. After reading Bill and Ian's discussion, changing to a .468" taper crimp all but eliminated the problem. Still have about a 3% failure to feed rate, but zero with the 452374.

Thank, Bill!

I have two dedicated crimp dies -- one a '73 dated RCBS for the 452460 and 452374, and a newer Hornady for their 230-grain HP/XTP. By visually comparing their interiors and measuring their respective crimp lengths, I can not see any differences between the two dies.

 

[Pistolero]

Does the Hornady TC die have a visible crimp region about 3/16" long when you look into
the die?
You are welcome. Happy to pass on hard earned lessons. The TC to .470 is the very common
conventional wisdom on reloading .45 ACP. And it is wrong.

I would suggest that you try cranking that TC die down another .001 or .002 and see if the
3% goes away.

Bill

 

[462]

No, Bill, both dies have long crimp sections.

Best I can measure, the RCBS is .483" long, and the Hornady is .454".

 

[Pistolero]

Hmm. In my view, the long taper section TC dies are not good
for getting the most reliable .45 ACP ammo. You want the case
to remain at .470 OD everywhere except over a short region right
at the case mouth where you reduce it to .465 or so over a distance
of perhaps .030-0.040 axial distance. It is actually difficult to properly
measure the .465ish diameter because it only exists over a very, very
short distance, perhaps .005 axially right at the case mouth.

Both Brad and Ian were able to show that going much below perhaps
.468 was very difficult (almost impossible?) with the long taper type
of TC dies. The short taper type really produces the most reliable ammunition,
and even more so, IME, with tight match type chambers, which have pretty
much become the industry standard these days in any of the higher quality
1911s to enhance accuracy. They tend to degrade reliability if not fed
perfect new ammo, or reloads with a good, short , tight TC.

I'd like Ian and/or Brad to chime in with their experience since they had the
long taper type dies.

Bill

 

[Ian]

I don't remember exactly what the issues were with each but I think the Redding would make .465" if I put my body weight on the press lever and swaged the whole case to the long, shallow taper. That of course swaged the whole bullet too and moved lead out in front like a heeled bullet. The Lee seat/crimp dies were too large to ever make smaller than .468".

I used an ancient RCBS roll crimp die for many years to get reliable feeding. Since the 1911 headspaces on the extractor, I never found it to be an issue, especially if not over-crimped.

I really appreciate your peristence in getting to the bottom of that problem.

 

[358156 hp]

I see that Redding offers micrometer adjustable taper crimp dies. Has anybody tried one yet? They seem... spendy.

 

[Brad]

I solved my problem by making a taper crimpdie. I used a 15° angle on the compound and bored a hole. Makes a nice crimp and I can adjust it easily. I wanted a snug crimp over a short distance that also wouldn’t hit the front of the bearing surface on a 200 SWC.
I get a crimp that I like and the gun seems happy too.

 

[fiver]

I seen a pic not too long ago of the short little taper you guy's are talking about.
it stood out perfectly like someone caught the sun light coming through a sheer curtain just right.

 

[Brad]

My Hornady taper crimp is a long, slight taper. Might be 3-5°? It gives a good crimp but also squeezes the case well below the case mouth. That isn’t helping my bullet any.

For a 5° angle a .010 crimp starts .113 from the case mouh, a 15° angle it is .037. That is a fair amount less bullet squeezed by the die.

 

[CZ93X62]

My prehistoric (1979 and 1981) RCBS 45 ACP and 9mm Luger die sets contain roll-crimp seater dies. I assembled a whole lot of reliable ammunition using just a light kiss of the roll-crimper on the flared case mouth during seating. Mentioning this on some sites borders upon heresy, and I have been called "Liar", "Fool", and a few worse things for having done so. One has to figure the median age for site members at such places is about 17 years, and OF COURSE an antedeluvian old reprobate like me can't possibly know WTH I'm talking about. (Of course I don't)

Harking back to the Old Days.....a T/C sizing die for straight-wall cases can make a pretty decent taper-crimp die by removing the decapping guts and setting the sizer to just kiss the flared case mouth with bullet seated. The Poor Man's Taper Crimp Die.

 

[Ian]

Brad, that's why an ancient book of trig tables has such a happy home on the shelf above my lathe.

 

[Brad]

Trig tables? I have an app.

I never paid enough attention to trig in school. Now I really understand why it is important and I have been reacquainting myself with it.

 

[Ian]

Trig tables don't need batteries, internets, or get terribly hurt if dropped on concrete. The tables, a little sohcahtoa, and long division with soapstone on the shop floor gets 'er did.

Here's a shot of the Lee taper-crimp at .468" on my standard .45 ACP load:

 

[462]

Thanks for the visual aid, Ian.

 

[fiver]

I have a batch of Remington cases I keep out for the boy's norinco 1911.
it all gets a mouth kiss in a roll crimp die.
I only do it for those cases and just because that gun really shows how well a box stock 1911 can shoot when treated nicely.

 

[Pistolero]

Good pic, Ian.
Brad, I had forgotten exactly how you solved it, but remembered that you
did solve it.

I keep reading this assertion that "the 1911 headspaces on the extractor". If you think this is true
you should take the slide and barrel off of yours, with the shortest empty case you can find in the chamber. Turn
it upside down and start sliding feeler gauges between the breech face and case head. You WILL hit the
end of the chamber way, WAY before you get anywhere near the extractor, probably at about 0.012 or a bit
more. If you'd like to explore the limits, trim a junk case down about 1/8" shorter than normal and put it in
and slide in shims or feeler gauge leaves until you hit the extractor. See how far off of the breech face
the case has to be before the extractor stops it.

It has been a very long time since I did it, but IIRC, the clearance of a case from the breech face
distance is something like .050 or more before the extractor stops it. I remember that when I did it,
I was convinced that the extractor couldn't ever be what actually stopped any real case.

And second - a 1911 firing pin can extend from the breech face about 3/4" or so. No chance that any
primer, anywhere in the rear half of the chamber will not get hit by the pin.

1911s headspace on the chamber end, just like they are supposed to. The extractor never comes into
play. Roll crimp or the tightest TC you could manage will still hit the end of the chamber before the
extractor comes into the picture. To get the case to 'miss' the end of the chamber, you'd need to put
the case in more than .009 per side, or .018. That would be a .442 TC, or about .013 tighter than
my "too tight" TC.
Here is a shot of the proper type of die.



Bill

 

[creosote]

And no midriff bulge

 

[Ian]

Actually, Bill, in some cases that assertion is true. My Kimber extractor claw is the limiting factor of forward case movement on all but the thinnest-rimmed brass, with an empty case. With a bullet seated to allow plunk -.005", the bullet in the throat is the limiting factor. Maybe it's out of spec, but that's the way it is. I found that out when working over the extractor angles with a stone to address the feeding jam and ejection angle issues. Part of the feeding jam issue was that a thick rim or burr on the rim would prevent the case from rotating up behind the claw because the claw is so short and holds the case so tightly against the breech face. I never checked any of my other 1911s to see how they work. And yes, you'd have to almost drop a caliber to get the case to fall past the chamber, and even then the firing pin would have no trouble poking out far enough to do its job. All the loading manual writ cautioning about only taper-crimping and not using too much is kind of misplaced IMO, unless the step at the end of the chamber is completely corroded out or something, and even then, the extractor will STILL hold the case well enough for the firing pin to smack it.

I should mention why I only go to .468". It has to do with "what works for me and all my various and sundry firearms that live on the .45 ACP cartridge", and the powder coating. I don't like the idea of using so much crimp that it bites all the way through the coating, and .468" is a good compromise. Also, my final bullet size is between .4513" and .4515" as it must be to chamber in ALL of my guns. The PC likes bullets closer to groove diameter anyway. At .4515", the .468" crimp isn't as severe as it would be on a .4525" bullet, so take all that into consideration when playing with crimp.

 

[Pistolero]

I do agree that not going tighter than needed is a good plan. The gun I checked is a Colt Gold Cup, so I
am sure that it is entirely possible that other manufacturers have used different tolerances and dimensions
in some areas. One of the issues with the 1911 platform is that if a new company decides to change
key dimensions "to make it better", JMB gets the blame if it doesn't work. It is key to know that
the FP will never, ever fail to reach any primer. Anyone who hasn't pushed in the FP with
a pin punch will be surprised by that (if the FP lock is disengaged, if it has one). So, maybe some
1911s might have a tight enough extractor to come into play. I need to repeat this on non-Colt
guns and see if that is the difference.

I have done some relatively recent accuracy testing with different crimp tightnesses. With hard
commercial H&G 68s in making IPSC ammo, function was what was important, guilt edged
accy wasn't anywhere near as important. With my softer bullets (WW+tin) I can just detect a slight
drop in accy between .464-.465 and .468ish TC. Small, but I was able to replicate it. So, for my
match ammo, I use my own cast real H&G 68s, or my wonderful LBT copy, or the equally wonderful
MP Products copy and .467-.468 TC in only Rem brass with Fed primers, 4.4 gr TG. For all other purposes,
commercial cast H&G 68 clones, range brass, any primer, usually CCI300, and 4.8 TG, and .465
TC for best possible reliability. I have been able to repeatedly get better groups with Rem
brass than with any other brand, to my surprise. Even brand new, wonderful Starline could not
match the groups. No idea why. Nothing that I can measure shows up.
I will readily admit that a very tight TC can reduce max accuracy, in certain situations, but it is a
small effect. Lack of TC or inadequate TC has a large effect on feeding realibility.

And in the end, what is really important is fitting YOUR ammo to YOUR gun. I can tell you what
has worked for a whole lot of different folks making high-reliability IPSC ammo for many guns,
mostly Colts in those days, but that is no guarantee in any particular gun. And most new 1911s these
days come with quite a bit tighter chambers and shorter throats than was the situation when all 1911s
had a horse on the side.

I, too, have found .4515 to be the best spot for .45ACP. I often wind up .001 to .003 over groove
diameter in other guns/cartridges, but it does not work in .45 ACPs. Even my huge throated M1917s (Colt and
S&W) will not chamber larger than .454. The semiautos might work with fatter bullets deep seated,
but not a good thing.

Bill

 

[Ian]

Well, the big take-away here for both of us might be to not make general assertions based on a sample of one.

If I want match accuracy, I reach for the .38 Super. My .45 ACPs need "combat accuracy", minute of man to 100 yards is good enough and I can usually hit a football at that distance with my 1911s. Oddly, I have a hard time getting 7/7 on a football at 25 yards . Aim small, miss small?

Bottom line is I want reliability and ammo that will chamber and fire safely in ANY .45 ACP, cycle blowback semi-auto carbines and also cycle and lock the bolt in my DI-45. For me, that means a 230-grain TC bullet, .4515" max bullet diameter, 1.208" max OAL, powder coat, .468" taper crimp, and powder in the Universal/Unique burn range. Taper-crimping as a SEPARATE step is also essential, as you have consistently mentioned.