new to .45 acp reloading

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
#41
These sorts of discussions--carried on respectfully and informatively--are what I missed while I was away from the site. So darn good! It is GREAT to be "home".

I REALLY like that "more-angular" taper-crimp form as shown in the green-bullet photo. Are the dies that produce this effect commercially-available tools? I have been able to produce reliable ammo using RCBS roll-crimp seater dies (gently), dedicated T/C-only dies in 9mm and 45 ACP, and in 40 S&W/10mm with the re-adjusted taper-crimper/seater die after completion of bullet seating. My thoughts--in absence of actual use--are that the angular form is a superior design. If such T/C dies are obtainable, these would make cool Christmas gifts from SWMBO.

The only 45 ACP barrels I have ever tried cast bullets sized to .454" within are from Glock pistols, and that is only because the "lobe span" groove diameter was .453" in all 3 of them. They all fed reliably, but I should add here that bullet ogives and shoulders didn't seem to get involved with throats much, if at all. Lyman #452374 (which just barely "cleaned up" in the .454" H&I die) plunked into chambers very happily, and fell free when the barrel was inverted. Same story with Ly #452460, Lee 200 grain H&G #68 plagiarizer, and the Lee 230 grain TC/conventional groove. These last 3 designs all had only .020" of drive band/shoulder extending outside the case mouths. Case expansion from the Glocks was compared to expansion from my Series 80 Gold Cup and SIG P-220, and diameters were all within .001"-.002" of each other. FWIW.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
#42
You have more different kinds of .45 ACPs than I do. I am primarily feeding the 1911s, although
Kimber, Colt, Rem-Rand and Dan Wesson flavors. I had to shorten my LOA when the first DW hit
the stable. It needs .025 shorter LOA than the Rem-Rand, Colts and Kimber. Match chamber with
almost no throat.
Truncated cone is a good feeder in everything I have ever tried it in.
When I get back home, I am going to check extractor to breech face distance on the MilSurp
Rem-Rand, and the Kimber (early production) just to have more info than just older Colt
production. I did actually check it on two early 80s Gold Cups, one of which I stupidly sold
in the middle 90s. :sigh:

Taper crimp with a short crimp-section die as a separate operation. That is a key function
in .45 ACP. Degree of crimp, LOA, and much more will depend on the individual gun and
chamber, bullet design.

Bill
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#43
Allen, the photo I posted showed a crimp made with a Lee taper-crimp (only) die that Bill sent me. Here's a link: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016834814/lee-taper-crimp-die

I feel that it's just right for all the self-loaders and it happens to work just dandy with my revolters, too. No crimp groove on the bullet, it's a TL design and in order to seat it deeply enough to satisfy the requirements of modern, throatless autos, it is necessary to swage the case mouth slightly into the middle of the forward band. The crimp has sufficient angle to hold under recoil in the revolvers, in the mag tube of my Thunderbolt conversion, as well as through all the semi-auto carbines and handguns.
 

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
#44
Well, THAT is about as straight-forward as it gets--many thanks for the info, I have zero experience with the Lee T/C dies. 40 bones for 3 of them to try out is right reasonable, too.

I have been known to bury a case mouth edge into a cast bullet drive band from time to time. That is a requirement with most castings in 30 Luger and 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25. Those tiny necks don't hold on to much, and need all the help they can get.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
#45
The pics of the inside of the die and the crimped round are the keys, since there are now the new
super long taper TC dies, which work quite differently. IME, in a bad way, not an improvement, but
you might have a need that they fit.

Bill
 
Last edited:

NAGANT

Active Member
#47
I thought i had the Lee taper with the 4 die set but no. Has the full crimp but instructions for the taper die reads if you have die sets made after 1986 that die is a "modified" taper crimp and will do the same. But then you would be seating and crimping together which i'd rather not. Tried the full crimp and it works more like a reducer. Might send the 4 die set back and get the 3 die set + taper crimp die, actually a little cheaper.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#48
Here's the Redding. It would make the .465" crimp but sized most of the bullet inside the case along with it. 20181127_220451.jpg
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
#49
I will try to get a photo of the die I made tomorrow. It is a much different taper when compared to the Hornady.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
#50
those long taper crimp dies are great if you want something to act like the lee FCD.
I use one of them to get my oversized P/C 357 mag rounds to chamber.
 

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
#51
I wasn't very clear in Post #46.......sorry about that. The TC dies now on hand here have profiles much like that seen in Ian's Post #48 pic. I share Ian's view that die contouring of this sort has great potential to size down seated cast bullets. Taper-crimping was not something I did in my earlier years of autopistol reloading. With the 32 ACP, 9mm Luger, and 45 ACP I let the roll-crimp shoulder just turn in the case mouth flare and called it "Good". Guns ran well, life was uncomplicated. Then along came the 10mm and its TAPER-CRIMP/Seater die, and it did not take long to figure out that seating and T/C-ing in one die step was a fool's errand. In retrospect, the 'kiss' of either a roll-crimp shoulder or a sizing die's entry radius serves as well or better than the slow-taper inside die contour we have dealt with for years. Yes, I am a heretic. I am OK with that, too.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
#52
The only issue I have with your method, CZ93x62, which undoubtedly will work the majority of the
time just fine, is that with a great variation of brass you can get a few extra long cases (compared to
your 'normal' case length) you can get overcrimps which will jam really tightly in the chamber. As I
mentioned, I recently helped clear one of these from a guy's 1911. He had given up and was leaving
the range with a jammed gun. If you have very consistent brass length, this may be an ultra rare occurrance.

In IPSC competition, with most shooting .45 ACP in that time, we inevitably wound out with lots of
other people's brass, so case lengths were all over the map, and I know I was unwilling to spend the
time to trim cases. TC was good for dealing with this random literally range pickup brass.

With a batch of one headstamp brass, always your own, the lengths may be very close to each other,
and roll crimp will do very well indeed, no doubt about it.

Bill
 
Last edited:

CZ93X62

Redlands, Kalifornistan
#53
Bill--

I think your 2nd paragraph explains the sudden popularity of the taper crimp dies c. 1980--contemporaneous with the explosion of the various action pistol venues into wide popularity. And your thrust is correct--when case lengths are all over the map, taper crimping is far less problematic.
 

358156 hp

Well-Known Member
#54
Wouldn't it be possible to just bore out the lower body portion of the die body to minimize the taper below the actual crimping area desired? The die opening could be pound cast to identify which areas you want to maintain, and which areas could be opened up.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
#55
That is possible IF the die isn’t hardened. I can assure you that at least parts of Hornady dies are very hard. That little sliding sleeve in their seaters, quite hard. I tried to open one up on the lathe and HSS just got laughed at.
We are, sadly, saddled with does for jacketed bullets. Only RCBS with their cowboy dies seem to acknowledge that people might just shoot cast.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
#56
The real issue is that the modern TC dies are at something like 1 or 3 degrees (guessing - I don't have
one - Brad or Ian, please confirm estimate of angle). The short 80s vintage TC was probably 8 -10 degrees
taper or so. Brad cut one, so should have a handle on that. I am just guessing on that angle, too.

Bill
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
#57
Mine is cut to 15°. I wanted a short, steep crimp so the body of the bullet is largely left untouched.
I tried to get photos but couldn’t get one that really showed the difference well. Maybe this weekend when I have some free time
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
#58
;Brad,
Does the pic I posted of the inside of my 1981 vintage RCBS die look about like
your 15 degree home made die? Any estimate of the long taper type die actual
angle?
 

358156 hp

Well-Known Member
#59
Mine is cut to 15°. I wanted a short, steep crimp so the body of the bullet is largely left untouched.
I tried to get photos but couldn’t get one that really showed the difference well. Maybe this weekend when I have some free time
This reminds me of my Redding Profile crimp dies. Since they feature a combination of a roll crimp & a taper crimp I've found I like them for jacketed bullets, but not as much for cast. They remind me a bit of LEE Factory Crimp Dies, they squish my carefully sized cast bullets down when I don't want it, but really crimp my (nowdays) rare jacketed bullets really, really securely. Since I've breached the subject, how do Redding taper crimp dies stack up as far as crimp length & angle, does anyone have one they could take a quick look at?
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#60
See post #48 for the Redding taper-crimp die. The angle is far too shallow ot adequately crimp the mouth without sizing down most of the bullet.