NOE 225-57 & 225-61 in the .223

[Spindrift]

I have the 3- cav aluminium versions of these moulds. The 225-57 looks like the baby brother of the Saeco #315 . The 225-61 is a clone of the RCBS- bullet. Both drop from the mould at slightly more than .226 in my alloy.
These are pan lubed, with a tumble coat on top. The lube, is my «favourite lube», detailed in the lube section. This seems to be a very good lube. Sages Cu- checks, size/crimped .226. Visual sorting, only.

I have had some luck with these, lately- with my new «pet load», Vectan Ba9- 6,6grs. The accuracy is quite consistent. Ba9 is an extruded, short grain, single base powder that seems slightly slower than Universal.

So far, driving these bullets at higher velocities have not yielded the best results, but limited experience with HV, so far.

Shot at 100m, from prone with support on a bag. Target increments approx. 1 MOA. Velocity about 1650fps.

Included a picture of the Røssler rifle, in the process of swapping barrels.

Cast bullets with the .223 has been slightly frustrating at times. But with the «low node» Ba9- load, it is great fun!

 

[fiver]

that's actually a slightly modified copy of the Saeco 60gr bullet.



the RCBs 0-55s

noe copy

similarish but the nose diameter just above the drive band and the nose taper are different as is the gas check shank length.
small differences,,, but differences matter past certain velocities as you have found.

 

[Ian]

That NOE 22-57 is the little brother to the one I've been using in my Mossberg MVP. Those tapered designs can shoot really well if they fit the throat in all the right places. Your groups are excellent.

How many grooves are you filling on the NOE bullet and do you have any cold bore flyers?

 

[Spindrift]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

I’m filling the three rear grooves. Quite a lot, really.
As I am pan lubing, it is difficult to get an absolutely precise lube level with these small bullets.

The cold/clean bore group is typically around 2 MOA, then it tightens up. I clean the bore after every range session, as I have found that accuracy deteriorates after maybe 100 shots.

I have a couple of tweaks on my list
1) less lube- could possibly give better CORE?
2) precondition the bore with a patch saturated with lube after cleaning (shrink first group?)
3) try with bullets crimp/sized base first. The MX- bullets I’m shooting here were sized nose- first, and have quite pronounced finning at the base
4) Cast better bullets! I have been focusing on casting technique this autumn, incorporating the things I have learned on this forum and adapting to the peculiarities of each mould. These bullets were cast last year. I think there is room for improvement there.

Edit: I first wrote that I filled two lube grooves, then checked- I am actually filling three

 

[fiver]

that's quite the modification on the receiver.
did the smith modify it or was it designed like that?
I been following this rifle since you got it, but I was kind of assuming an interrupted thread type take down, or you were just screwing and unscrewing barrels down on a dummy cartridge of some sort.

 

[Spindrift]

This rifle is unmodified, factory standard. The front reciever ring acts as a clamp, with two allen screws. The bolt lugs (three in this case) lock up in the rear part of the chamber. When I install a new barrel, I just stuff it into the front reciever ring, lock up the bolt and tighten the clamp. Locking up the bolt in the chamber ensures headspace is OK. The switch takes less than 5 minutes, and requires an allen wrench only; I use a torque wrench, but that is not strictly necessary.

Sauer and Schultz& Larsen use a similar system for their switch barrels. My remington 700 is different, it has a threaded sleeve installed in the front reciever ring so I can unscrew the barrel ( by hand) without lifting the reciever from the stock. These barrels must be carefully adapted by the gunsmith.

The reason these rifles are fairly popular in Europe, is of course legislation. I can own only 6 hunting weapons. And for a rifle buff, that is...... pretty meager. But I can own as many barrels as I want.

 

[Ian]

Yes, but you can also buy a suppressor across a counter right now and walk out with it, or loan it to a friend with no legal hassles.

The Sauer and S&L setups sound like a lot of other designs with the bolt directly engaging the barrel, such as the AR-15, Winchester 1300, BAR, etc. which eliminates headspace issues (once the bolt and barrel are matched) and takes all the bolt thrust load off if the receiver itself.

 

[fiver]

yep.
I have seen skeleton cut ar-15's that at first glance make you think wth?
then you realize the receiver is just a bolt cover or a housing as it were.

 

[Spindrift]

And now, over to something completely different:



My PC- technique is not the best, as you can see. But I’m making progress. Shot the 225-57 today, coated bullets (first try with this bullet). Mostly without GC, but some groups with GC as well. Sized .226, which the rifle prefers with greased bullets. Will try .225 PC later, it is entirely possible this is better with the coated bullets. Light jam fit (will try with jump later). I don’t consider this a «test», but just a bit of probing, to get my bearings.

All groups shot from prone, with support on a bag.

35F, windy day, I was worried the wind would drift my slower loads. And I suppose it did. This is a group with checkless bullets, Vectan Ba9, 6,6 grs.



N110, 11 grs, checkless bullets. Didn’t chrony this load, but 10 grs was 1900fps. The flier opened the group to 2 MOA,approximately.



N120, 15 grs, checkless bullets, 2230fps. Ahh, that flier.... Barrel is 18in, by the way



No sensational groups so far, but this is the first time I try these bullets with PC. To me, this was encouraging- especially the fact that the PC- bullets shot so well without the gas checks (not so surprising, as I have learned this trick from you guys)

 

[Ian]

Not too bad. There are a few things going on with PC, like we're discussing in the "hypothetical question" thread.

Giving the bullet a running start at the throat potentially reduces the gas cutting of the unprotected base band by reducing the force/pressure needed to engrave the bullet. Better base bands translates to better groups because the gas expulsion is more even around the bullet as it exits the muzzle crown.

But giving the bullet a running start also might give it a chance to go crooked into the throat and create imbalance in flight. The PC greatly increases the odds of a "jumped" bullet gliding back to center again without damage...within limits.

Due to that bullet's good balance between adequate support bands and adequate displacement grooves, I found that a gas check and placing the bullet as close to the ball seat as possible made for a straight start without too much engraving pressure and enabled good accuracy with near full jacketed velocity.

Slightly slower powders than you are using now might also prove helpful to the un-checked bullets since the peak pressure will occur after the bullet is completely into the rifled part of the barrel and moving along quite well, but if you try that you will need to play around a little to find a good balance between the alloy strength and powder charge/burn curve.

I've seen a LOT of .223 groups posted on another forum that weren't anywhere close to as consistent as those (even with the flyers) and those folks were using custom bump dies and gas checks.

 

[Spindrift]

Thank you for encouraging words and good advice, much appreciated!

I’ll try with slower powders as well. I have a good selection of medium/fast powders to try (H322, Benchmark, tu-3000, norma 200, imr4198). And medium speed (N140, N150, imr4064, MR-2000).
But first, I think I should experiment with the fundamentals of COL and sizing diameter. Next time, I’ll try out .225 vs .226, with and without jump. Then I’ll tune the powder choice to wrap it up

 

[Ian]

Absolutely, you have plenty to explore yet and there's nothing at all wrong with the powders you're using now, I was just making conversation.

 

[fiver]

I know you like to have fun with this stuff.
one of the cool things I have done as a just to see thing is to find a good balanced load to start with then just match it's pressures [kind of closeish anyway] with slower and slower powders and observing the reaction of the holes on the paper.