Noe 311-195-FP

Rally

NC Minnesota
I took a doe this past Saturday evening of Mn rifle opener. Used a Rem. 700 SS in .30-06, NOE 311-195-Fp, 32.5 grs of IMR 4198, Bens Red plus BW, aluminum GC, alloy was 75% COWW, 25% Mono and enough tin to get to 2%. Book says it is around 2150. Doe was about 45 yds. from me at the shot, with her front feet up on a hummock snorting at me. Her head was turned slightly to her right but not yet quartering to me. She had first appeared to my front but made me when she saw me move to raise the rifle and all I could see of her was pieces through the regrowth Ash and poplar. Pretty thick stuff with a brush pile between me and where she was traveling from. I first saw her when she was about 35 yards in front of me but just couldn't find a clear spot to place the shot. Wind was in my favor, and she headed back the way she came, but did a half moon circle to get a better view of me or wind me, snorting the whole time. I could see pieces of her as she tried to get down wind of me but not a clear shot, nor where her body parts were for sure, or what I was looking at in the scope. She stopped about 45 yards out but there was too much brush to take a chance at getting a bullet deflected. She did the whole sort and stomp thing, knew I was there, just didn't know what I was. Then she reversed directions with her body and put her feet up on a hummock. That gave me a perfect picture of her upper chest and head.
The bullet hit her where the neck and spine turn upward, traveled down the spine shortly hitting vertabra and breaking the tops of four ribs. The bullet stopped somewhere, but I can't tell you where for sure. I found it on the floor after removing the hide and there was no exit wound in the ribcage or hide??? Damage to the spine and ribs was pretty substantial, with some evidence of some bleeding between ribcage and front left leg, but no holes there other than substantial entry as pictured.
If you look closely at the small blood spot to her center bottom, there is also two skid marks from her front feet on the ice. The small blood spot is from her nose hitting the ground first before she flopped over on her right side. As close to a bang flop as I've ever witnessed. The recovered bullet weighed 130.5 grs after being cleaned, and the GC was gone. I already cut the deer up and recovered no fragments of the bullet nor GC. I'm guessing they came out when I gutted her at that location. From the recovered bullet it appears the shank of the bullet is intact with weight loss coming from the nose, of which about half sheared off on one side.
I'm not real concerned with the nose shearing off, considering how much bone it hit. I realize the alloy is harder than most use, and I tried .310 and .311 diameters to start with, but the gun likes .309 with this bullet and the 165RD. Because of this bullets FP, OAL to function is 2.965". Plenty of room in the magazine for longer, but hits the feed ramp and stops any longer. The RD does the same thing in this rifle.
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And my youngest Grandson got his first buck on Sunday afternoon, with Grandpa's Marlin 1894 in ,44 mag. The same rifle his dad got his first two deer with. Which by the way was shooting a NOE 432-265-RD bullet I cast in a DP version. Guess he shot it at 30 yards from his stand and dropped right there. My son said it was a complete through and through with an exit hole the size of his thumb. Can't get anymore scientific than that with the .44 because I wasn't there. Smile tells me all I need to know. He's eleven by the way. Not bad for a first buck.
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Sorry about the pictures I don't know how to get them moved from my phone in the correct order yet.
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Rally

NC Minnesota
And delicious too! The wife did the crock pot venison stew thing tonight. Enough left for dinner tomorrow too. Life is good.
The grandson picture above is the one who likes to shoot the Lee 7/8 oz. slugs. Very little recoil at 1400 Fps. We shot 80 last time we were shooting in the two Rem. 870 expresses I bought in June.
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
I'd have to say that the bullets worked pretty well . Meat in the freezer is success even if the bullet didn't do what you expected it to .

As far as 44/45 goes the local total on 9 hogs is 1 bullet recovered with pass throughs of 18-36" . I would tend to think that unless you hit a deer dead on the shoulder well past 50 yd you won't get a bullet back .
 

Rally

NC Minnesota
RBHARTER,
I was pretty pleased with the bullets performance, considering what it hit. What amazed me was the distance it actually moved the deer, to the rear, and expended all it's energy in the deer. Best I can tell the bullet must have been lodged in the spine and fell out when I took the hide off. No holes in the hide other than point of entry. The deer fell on the skid marks from the back legs. I've never observed a bullet actually "move" a deer that far. I've shot three laying in their beds in my life, the last a small buck, in the nose with a Marlin 336 in .44 mag, that was looking at me nose on, under a pine tree, during a snow storm. Bullet lodged about mid neck. Didn't move that one at all, but it wasn't standing with it's feet on ice. The other two were through and through neck shots at close range.
I've heard a lot of people declare they "knocked a deer off it's feet", but the snow doesn't lie. Most often, IME, the deer hunch up/ jump then go over. In this case the impact actually "skid" the deer three feet to the rear. No evidence the deer even kicked after landing. That is pretty unusual from what I have observed.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
That large caliber through the nose when they're looking at you does DRT pretty well, doesn't it?

A while back I was watching a utoob video of someone shooting a pig carcass with various suppressed rifles at something like 100 yards with the camera a few feet from the carcass. The point was to give an impression of what the other pigs hear when the bullets impact the body. The impact noise is impressive but only the .45-caliber moved the pig much and it was just a gentle rock. Another interesting video showed what it took to knock over a human gelatin torso perched on a bucket, I think 12-gauge slugs just barely even knocked it over. The result ON target if 100% of the energy is dumped into it in the same distance is akin to the recoil felt on the shoulder, minus the mass of the gun, i.e. not a lot.
 

Rally

NC Minnesota
Ian,
That was a Lee bullet, a 210 hp mold in COWW. Pretty impressive wound channel. Black nose was easy to see in that white wonderland.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
I poked a small red deer in the bridge of the nose with a Lee 358-200rf at about 2100 fps, not as dramatic as it sounds but definitely an instant kill.
 

Will

Well-Known Member
Looks like the bullet worked well congratulations. When I first started shooting cast bullets I was truly amazed by what they were capable of.

I have 100% confidence in them on game now as long as I’ve done my homework.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
when you put bones into play you can't really predict the outcome.
I hit a buck about 35' below me and about 100yds away going away from me at a slight angle.
I should have took out the front of the liver and punched the off side lung on the bullets way through.
the liver got took out along with some of the back strap, the lung looked like it took a bullet as it was full of blood and pretty torn up.
the bullet must have mushroomed and broke up? or just broke off the nose, because I found the base of it up at the base of the neck.
only I cant figure out the broke up part because what I found was a perfect mushroom with the core still bonded to the jacket. [only it was just about 30% of the bullet]

the bullet had to have hit and made about a 30* turn along the rib bones travelled along next to the back strap and come to a stop at the base of the neck.
I could see the deer take the bullet and skid his back legs sideways like I had hit it in the hip, but he just kept going for maybe 75yds and keeled over.
I never found a drop of blood or anything and had to track him by some branches he broke on a couple of dead trees as he was going through a little aspen grove.
I don't know how he made it that far with the entrance hole that bullet made especially coupled with the liver bleeding out and the lung damage to say nothing of the shock that the spine should have received.
 

Ian

Notorious member
"Brush cutting" bullets seem to travel more straight when going through an animal too. Newton's first law of motion. .30 caliber and below can do some weird stuff when hitting bone. The weirdest one I've seen I mentioned before was a quartering away shot on a big six point whitetail, the bullet went outside a little too much and went straight-line through seven ribs and out the chest without deflecting even a little bit. Ranch Dog .30-caliber from ACWW. Exit hole was pencil-sized. Walked up on him and he was standing there looking at me curiously like nothing had happened. .35 caliber and up for sure had its merits....except for trajectory.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
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No animals involved here, just a loose rock pile berm. 9mm 115 fmj and 40sw cast (left). Bottom is 308W cast after cutting 12ga steel wire in half - what was left that I found. GC was bent. 9s were beat up and bounced around in the pile a bit, surprisingly, 40s had 90% weight retention! Forget if PC or Hitec but coating has fractured off. Round piece at bottom came from the GC, bottom part was melted part of body. Cast is harder alloy than used in the FMJ, soft mushrooms until it breaks off. Only way to put a hog down right there is a spine/CNS hit, probably same on deer. Animal bone is kinda soft but IT deflects too! Movement you see is reaction to the hit, not impact. Cowboy 12 double shot had a rope tied to the guy and pulled onto a mattress! Sugar glass doesn't cut, just shatters.
 

Rally

NC Minnesota
Popper,
Take a close look at the picture of that doe, the skid marks from her front feet, which were aprox. 3' in length, from the hummock she was standing on to the end which is pictured. If you look close at her left rear knee, you can see where her rear feet were at impact. Her rear feet stopped at the hummock her rump is touching in the picture, which stopped her rearward movement. The marks by her rear feet were made as she fell to the right. The small blood spot is from her nose before she flopped over to her final position as pictured. Her front feet left the ground when she flopped over on her right side, and the small blood drops indicate the direction of travel of her nose/head. Her nose hit the ground on the left side of her front feet while she was semi erect, her body in a semi circle position (upward back). When her rear feet hit the hummock is when she flopped over on her right side, or the evidence of her body being on the ground would be evident. Her rear legs hit the hummock, stopping her rearward movement, her nose hit the ground left of her front feet, her right rear went down, then her body flopped right to her final resting place. She landed on the skid marks from her rear feet. Note the distance to the hummock from the rear of the skid marks from her front feet is a shorter distance than her body length, the trail of the small blood droplets, and the abrupt end to her front tracks, and mark from dew claw to rear of right front foot. All indications her body was moving in a rearward direction. I'm betting from the damage the bullet did to her spine/CNS she didn't have control of her senses, and like a rock or pop can when shot, a great deal of force was transferred to her high center mass, and indeed did propel her to the rear.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
just an off the top of my head calculation but I'd believe the actual amount of force the bullet would have imparted would have been about 9lbs.
the problem with a calculation like that is it doesn't take into account the frontal area of the bullet
[approx. .023 sq. inches] being where all that force is applied, and the frontal area is increasing in diameter after about 2"s of travel and puncturing the skin.
the skin being stretched is also spreading that force out into a larger area.
this is why you have a temporary and a permanent wound channel.

the deer I shot this fall obviously was hit hard enough at around 250yds to knock the breath out of it and make it sit down like a dog, it got up and took around 3 steps and face planted.
last year's buck jumped twice then dove off a cliff, it landed on it's face after dying in mid air.
you could see it physically go limp and drop like a duck, I doubt it ever heard the boom of the rifle.
the only real difference was the distance of the latter shot was about 85 yds further away.
it died quite a bit quicker but had less physical reaction to the shot other than the 2 jumps.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
I believe that an animal's nerves and muscles can make it react in all sorts of ways when hit with a sudden (or not so sudden) shock. I also believe in physics, and I'm pretty sure a bullet's momentum and kinetic energy on an animal can't be greater or even equal to the energy and momentum imparted to the shooter. If the recoil won't knock a 200 lb adult backward two feet the momentum of the bullet alone won't knock a 200 lb deer backward two feet.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
correct.
but absorbing and stopping are two different things.
I'm am not a fan of an animal stopping my bullets, yeah, yeah dead is dead,,, but IMO that's not how things should work.
 

Rally

NC Minnesota
And the deer was standing on snow covered ice. Doesn't take much momentum to move 120 lbs. on ice skates. Considerably less of a drag factor.

For sure Kevin. Ethan is an outdoor nut, and is interested in blacksmithing, wood crafting, fishing, and takes Tai Kwondo (SP). His sisters are all in Hockey! LOL He will most likely end up with that rifle, just because.
 
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Rally

NC Minnesota
Fiver,
Been thinking about what you mentioned about not intended for the deer to catch bullets. Not all bad though, because I got the deer and all but 30 grs. of the bullet. You know I'm going to recycle that bullet, because you know all bullet casters are...…. frugal! So if I cast that bullet into two smaller bullets, for say my .243, and get a bullet, or both back, that would be like getting three deer for the weight of one .30 cal. 195 gr. bullet. Never mind the 20K of reloading equipment to get the three deer! LOL