NOE 311284 Cup Point

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
I cast about 150 of these today.
This 311284 cup point is a real killer on white tailed deer.
I've shot several sub 1" groups with this one at 100 yards out of more than 1 of my .30 cal. rifles.

" As Cast Diameters "
Bands mike .312
Nose mikes .3015"

Ben

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Eutectic

Active Member
Now you're talkin'! Good deer bullet! (I'm afraid your .35 Winchester HP may still be tough on them?)

Pete
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
how old is the 284 design now?
hundred years plus?

one slight change and it becomes something else again.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
HISTORY OF THE GAS CHECK



Ideal Handbook No. 17, published in 1906, shows a new cast bullet innovation ....the "gas check cup" along with two new molds designed to use them that are still with us today.... #308284(now Lyman's 311284) for the .30-40 Krag, and #308291 (now Lyman's 311291) for the .30-30.​
But what event lead up to the research and development of this new cast bullet device? A hint of that was noted in Ideal's 1904 manual. Dr. Walter G. Hudson, who was a World Champion Rifle shooter and held many records in his day, had been working on the problem of trying to achieve 1,500 f.p.s. in the .30 U.S. Army (.30-40) with 200+ grain bullets which was felt would give accurate shooting at 600 yards.​
Dr./Cpt. Walter Guy Hudson was perhaps the leading Krag shooter in the history of the competition Krag. He was a firing member of the 1902 Palma team, came in second in the Wimbeldon Cup a couple of times, and generally regarded as a champion class rifle competitor, not only with the Schuetzen rifle, but with the military rifle.​
Beginning in 1901, there was a desperate need for military practice ammunition that was accurate to the mid ranges (600 yards) and Hudson applied himself to the task of perfecting a lead bullet load that would perform out to this range.​
The problem he encountered in trying to achieve that goal was fusion, or gas cutting as we know it today. He tried experimenting with antimonial alloys for stronger bullets but fusion persisted. He worked with J.H. Barlow of Ideal on bullet design and diameters, even to the point of using a front "gas check" band (front driving band) diameter of .325"(!) but to no avail.​
Eventually, Dr. Hudson and Mr. Barlow of Ideal Manufacturing Co. hit upon the idea that a copper alloy spacer to insulate the bullet from the hot powder gases might work. They tried copper discs under plain based bullets, and found that they successfully prevented fusion. Higher velocities were then achieved with no leading. . Further development lead to the cup profile and the first gas checked bullet... Ideal's #308284.​
Since the gas checked #308284 worked very well, Mr. Barlow set to work to develop additional gas checked bullets very quickly. #308291 for the .30-30 was next. Samples of cartridges loaded to factory velocities with the new bullet designs were sent to the Marlin Firearms Co. and Savage Arms Company for their evaluation.​
Marlin responded "We have the pleasure of reporting to you that these appear to be in every way equal to factory loaded ammunition with metal jacketed bullets." Savage wrote back that they tested them in the .30-30 and .303 Savage and they compared favorably in accuracy with their jacketed bullets.​
A few years later, in 1909, the Ideal Handbook No. 19 illustrated a total of 15 different gas checked bullets in calibers ranging from the .25-20 up to .38-55.​
It is known that these first gas checks were designed to fall from the base of the bullet shortly after leaving the muzzle. Some 60 or so years later, Hornady Manufacturing came along with a new crimp on engineered gas check designed to stay with the bullet in flight. And the rest shall we say........is history.
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fiver

Well-Known Member
think about that.
they were stuck at 1400 fps.
one little thing and suddenly they had all but caught up with jacketed bullets at around 1900-2000 fps.
here we are 100 years later struggling to get another couple hundred fps from those same rifles.
[with those same bullet designs]
our understanding has become stagnant in some areas partially because some people refuse to see past 100 Y.O technology.
one guy took it upon himself to try some new things and his efforts paid off.

not to take away from a very successful design, or what it is totally capable of.
but I do wonder how quickly the technology was embraced [obviously pretty quickly by the amount of new designs available in a short time] or how many said it couldn't be done because it wasn't they way they had always done it.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
My Dad had that mold.... But he had a Krag before he had an '03 Springfield!
I cast some from the old mold a while back...... Studied the bullet.... So I shot some in a Model 94 .30-30!:embarrassed:

No not at full weight! I like 311440 and have that design in a 4 cavity...... So I gave the 308284 a 'nose job'!
It shot pretty well over Rel 15 in the 94 carbine! New weight was 183grs.
Might have to get the NOE mold........

Pete

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Ben

Moderator
Staff member
The age of the design is of little consequence to me.
I like the accuracy potential of the bullet regardless of it's age.
Either Dr. Hudson and Mr. Barlow were just flat out lucky or they
both knew a little bit about designing an accurate , hard hitting
.30 cal. cast bullet design in the 311284.
This one is over 100 years old and is still a good killer on deer and is also a very accurate cast bullet at the range in several of my .30 cal. rifles.

Lyman has removed a high % of their moulds from their catalog, but not this one ! !

Ben
 
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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
That is one of the first bullets I fired in a modern rifle. Paul really like that mould.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Do I like it? Won the CBA Military Issued, Modified Iron Sight and Scope Sight national matches with it over the years. While not as wind bucking as the 311299, it can be made to fit the .30 throats better than anything else. FWIW, Ric
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
Ric,

Your personal experiences through the years speak volumes for this great turn of the century design.
May be old, but it works doesn't it ? ?

Ben
 
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Ben

Moderator
Staff member
My Dad had that mold.... But he had a Krag before he had an '03 Springfield!
I cast some from the old mold a while back...... Studied the bullet.... So I shot some in a Model 94 .30-30!:embarrassed:

No not at full weight! I like 311440 and have that design in a 4 cavity...... So I gave the 308284 a 'nose job'!
It shot pretty well over Rel 15 in the 94 carbine! New weight was 183grs.
Might have to get the NOE mold........

Pete

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Can you post some photos of your " modified nose " 311284 bullet mould ?

Ben
 
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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Ben, I wonder if Pete didn't use the normal mould then lathe modify the noses. The nose on the bullet in the photo looks almost as if it was gone over with steel wool or something like that after turning.

That bullet would be a real hammer
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Ben, the design of the '284 is good for making it fit the rifle: bore riding nose, top drive band is full size and 2/3 up from the base, enough groove volume to handle the metal displaced by the lands (even in a two groove barrel) and gas checked. The issue with military rifles and used sporting guns is the throat is so advanced you have to be able to get the top drive band firmly into the origins of the lands. IMHO, Ric
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
Ben, I wonder if Pete didn't use the normal mould then lathe modify the noses. The nose on the bullet in the photo looks almost as if it was gone over with steel wool or something like that after turning.

That bullet would be a real hammer


I think you're correct Brad.

Ben