Noe expander

[Roger Allen]

Just bought one of those noe expanders that acts like the Lyman m die for my 38-55. I originally just tried to load a bullet into a case as a dummy and try it for function. It functioned but when I pulled the bullet it went from .380 to .377 and I needed a course of action. Supposably it works w the lee expander die.

 

[Ian]

M-dies are useless. Get an RCBS cast bullet expanding die body and order the spuds you need in the size you need to get about 1.5 thousandths of interference fit with the bullet.

 

[fiver]

I thought the NOE's were custom sizes also?
I agree with shooting for 1.5 thou neck tension this has become my go to number.

 

[Intheshop]

Wondering why M dies are "useless"? Been working pretty good here with custom spuds.... at least that's what mr/s Brown & Sharpe's dial indicators show on runout.

So,considering.... maybe I can get better than current,<.001" runout,I ordered the RCBS expander die and a cpl spuds,which were on clearance. Then too,will be turning custom spuds.

 

[Rick]

I wouldn't say the M dies are useless but the RCBS expanders are a much better die. I have and use M dies just because I haven't replaced them all with the RCBS. Yet.

 

[Eutectic]

Intheshop is on the right track. We have a little fake news going on...

RCBS type tapered expanders are indeed convenient but the best????????????? Gentlemen (and ladies) look at the whole picture here!

We have a multiple alignment situation going on in seating our bullets. In laymen terms we want our bullet seated straight. This is not only circumferential run out but on the center line over its total length. A simple tapered mouth will do this? In your dreams! Only with a precision seating die to help it.
There in is the trouble...... Most of us use standard RCBS type dies with 'generous clearance' to be nice. Many calibers are not available in tight clearance dies unless you make then yourself. Some of what I want the best accuracy from aren't available in precision dies.
Then our case necks....... Are they equal thickness? Are they equally annealed around the circumference? Either can put our bullet to one side of the centerline. A tapered start can aggravate this even more..... The tapered pin is a universal convenience that doesn't need multiple two-step expanding dimensions just right to work right. Generalized thinking has the expander as a lead shearing prevention tool and nothing else. Very similar to generalized thinking that bullet lube only has to prevent leading!

I use the tapered RCBS-type expander plugs for handguns, maybe lever guns, plinking autos for their convenience. 2 MOA type stuff. If I'm working with something in the 1/2 MOA range I have a two-step expander every time! (Even with jacketed bullets at times) Not a generic one either! Usually it is custom sized both in diameters and length of steps. Most reloaders set the bullet on top of the charged case and run it into the die as well. On my extreme accuracy loads I observe bullet alignment prior to die engagement.... another convenience not spoke of for what we are calling "M" dies.

Is all this wind? I suggest more time at the bench with your really accurate capable stuff. Performance tells the truth. Direct comparison between a convenient universal tapered expander and a custom dimensioned two step expander plug..... "M" die if you will....

A two step neck expander "M" die useless???? IN A PIG'S EYE!!!!!!!

Pete

 

[Intheshop]

I was just looking for insights.....

It's been my experience that it's WAY easier to hit "class of fit" on an O.D. thread ( Lyman spud) than trying to hit I.D. threads( RCBS style).... the spud diameter isn't at issue,make it whatever you want?

 

[Intheshop]

Eutectic,there is a small co making a collet expander die that takes a range of ,over the counter hardened,gage pins.The JB BR boys use them.

 

[Ian]

A two step neck expander "M" die useless???? IN A PIG'S EYE!!!!!!!

I think you missed my point, Pete.

IF your first step is the correct diameter for desired bullet pull and
IF the transition angle between the two diameters is <30°
IF the second diameter isn't so large as to blow the neck tension at the case mouth, then the "M" type spuds are ok. Ish.

Show me a commercial two-step offering which has met any of those criteria. They're all made wrong. You and I have lathes and can make whatever we require, most people are stuck buying readymade tools and RCBS has the only thing off the shelf that I've found to work because it expands the whole neck as required and adds a kiss of bellmouth that is controllable by the user. Using standard sizing dies and standard M-dies by Lyman or NOE is a recipe for problems. I've asked Professor Gun, actually several, and they told me the answer.

Use a straight-line seating die and you won't have to over-stretch a parallel portion in the neck to get the bullet started. You won't find any two-diameter spuds at my house because I don't size my necks on anything so much that such a thing would be required.

 

[Roger Allen]

i was just asking noe or m die?

 

[Eutectic]

IF your first step is the correct diameter for desired bullet pull and
IF the transition angle between the two diameters is <30°
IF the second diameter isn't so large as to blow the neck tension at the case mouth, then the "M" type spuds are ok. Ish.

Use a straight-line seating die and you won't have to over-stretch a parallel portion in the neck to get the bullet started. You won't find any two-diameter spuds at my house because I don't size my necks on anything so much that such a thing would be required.

First step is similar for both and I have no problem with the .0015" for bullets that get kicked around. I might in a non-repeater with soft bullets go to .001"

I don't know where you got the <30° for a transition angle but consider it OK in general. I've even used a radius here with good results. 020" to .030" length of larger diameter is all that's needed.

"IF the second diameter isn't so large as to blow the neck tension at the case mouth," This may be where you get your 'ish' from Ian... This area just a snug finger fit on your bullet and provides no neck tension. You should be able to start the bullet with your fingers.... I spin the round in the shell holder with my fingers and true up the bullet before seating.

Your straight-line seater is one fix. I neck sized for years with lousy results. I don't like to do ANYTHING to the neck without having the body involved! So I have almost a ton of full length dies modified for one particular gun. I like a very, very, light body size like .0005" with the neck sized concentric and center lined with the body and only enough that my expander just expands slightly. Some calibers I may have 6 or 7 sizers for different chamber dimensions and marked for the gun. A precision neck job has to be supported straight from the base forward in other words to be worth its salt. A benefit on centering with the expander ring of .020" to .030" max length at the top of the case is additional centering support. Sometimes I feel this lip slightly rub as I close the bolt.

Pay attention to all this stuff Ian and you may have a very experienced ex-Omark RCBS expert say to you about your grouse gun.....
"That old Savage isn't normal! That thing is a d-mn .32-20 bench gun!"

Pete

 

[Eutectic]

i was just asking noe or m die?

"M" die is Lyman's name for a two step expander and NOE's work similar. Sounds like yours doesn't expand enough for a .380" bullet. I believe NOE offers different dimensions? I'd see if I could get a bigger one diameter-wise.

Pete

 

[fiver]

i was just asking noe or m die?

we get a little carried away,, but I do enjoy the discussions.

I really have no opinion one way or the other about a spud thingy I don't now and never have used one.
other than flairing a case mouth with a powder through die on almost all of my pistol caliber stuff I don't do any secondary steps as far as opening a neck.
Aaaand most often don't even flair a case mouth for my rifles.
maybe I could shoot smaller groups with one?, maybe I don't shoot that good?

 

[RBHarter]

If a Chevy doesn't have an electric bug it won't run , Fords sometimes even within model won't share parts and Dodges eat T cases .........

Brother if it works for you and your set up use it , if it doesn't don't ........

 

[Ian]

"IF the second diameter isn't so large as to blow the neck tension at the case mouth," This may be where you get your 'ish' from Ian... This area just a snug finger fit on your bullet and provides no neck tension. You should be able to start the bullet with your fingers.... I spin the round in the shell holder with my fingers and true up the bullet before seating.

And you can buy an M-die that does that out of the box?

 

[Eutectic]

And you can buy an M-die that does that out of the box?

Not very often..

Better with NOE..... I looked a moment ago and I think they have one to correct Roger Allen's (OP) .380" bullet problem.

Pete

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

We need some thread drift.
Are the RCBS neck expander die case specific ?

 

[Intheshop]

Don't think so Kevin,it's a threaded rod coming though the top of a hollow die..... spuds have a female threaded hole,you make the spud in whatever shape you want and screw it on there. I have one coming with a 22 and 24 pilot..... which is kinda dumb because they're both gonna be the wrong size..... which gets us right back to square one.

Noe,if I'm not mistaken is a little easier to deal with on custom sizes,#1..... and #2 is,they float within a chamber so no threading necessary.

I like M dies...... but generally like RCBS dies very well too.Will make some spuds(stepped) for my new one and see how they work?Not that big of a deal.And/or change it over to where it's a hybrid or whatever?

 

[462]

I'm an M-die user, because my machinist neighbor and Buckshot made me a lot of custom sizes. Also, I have three NOEs that I use with the Lee die, only because they cost less than what my neighbor charges.

The only factory Lyman spuds I use are for handgun jacketed bullets.

 

[Eutectic]

I like M dies...... but generally like RCBS dies very well too.Will make some spuds(stepped) for my new one and see how they work?Not that big of a deal.And/or change it over to where it's a hybrid or whatever?

I have modified (or made new) the RCBS spuds to a "M" die of sorts if the main diameter is suitable for my needs. I've got a couple I've just made the second step .030" long.... then picking up the RCBS taper angle continuing above that. This gives you the main diameter for .0015"bullet pull, the step diameter for moe better alignment, the step length, and a very slight bell above that all in one stroke of the press handle.

Pete