OAL for a cartridge

[Ben]

People continue to ask ...." Tell me the Cartridge Over All length for BLA -BLA- BLA ".

I continue to say, " There is no set number to offer you. " Each firearm is different !
I've seen Remington 700 rifles in the same caliber that needed cartridges of quite different over all lengths to function properly.

Reamers are different, what one USA firearms company sees as appropriate, a European company sees quite different.

A reloader ( as quickly as possible ) when they start reloading, needs to be taught how to establish the COL for their own firearms.

Ben

 

[Ian]

Throats wear also, changing the OAL requirements for both jacketed and cast bullets.

 

[JWFilips]

I Have used the old Bullet drop method on occasion: Put a flat faced cleaning jag on a cleaning rod Close the bolt on the rifle and put the cleaning rod down the muzzle and mark where it stops. Then open the bolt hold rifle muzzle down and drop a bullet down the chamber Put the rifle horizontal again Hold the Bullet in position with a dowel then run the ramrod down the muzzle again and mark the rod The distance between those two marks is measured as carefully as possible & that should be COL max for that rifle & bullet. However I rather place a bullet in a semi tight case and load it and let the action push it into place... Take it out of the action carefully & Measure This is How I develop my loads at that Max COL. On average The two methods are close but never the same. Plus with the second method I have a dummy round for that bullet. But keep in mind I never crimp and 95 % of the time even on the loaded cartridge I let the action do the final seating of the bullet. But I only shoot paper and load 1 round at a time
Jim
BTW COL "Cartridge Overall Length"... OAL "Over all length" of cartridge Potaaato -Potato

 

[smokeywolf]

On tube fed lever guns, I go by what will cycle reliably. Maximum (near .000 clearance) minus .015. On a couple of the levers the throats are short enough to cause difficulty closing the bolt/lever, in which case I back off on COL until I'm no longer or just barely engraving the bullet's nose/ogive.

On bolt and box magazine lever (model '95), depending on the bullet/ogive geometry I like to just barely engrave the ogive. On jacketed I prefer to be just a few thousandths back from ogive to lands contact.

As Ben says, even two rifles of the same make and model will produce different results with the same COL.

 

[Ben]

Young reloaders have zero interest in learning how to establish the COL for their own firearm.
They want you ( even if you're 1,000 miles from them ) to tell them in a few seconds the exact COL for their particular firearm.

Can't be done.

Ben

 

[smokeywolf]

I was never that young. Besides, R & D or what is usually more accurately, T & E (trial & error) is part of the fun.

 

[JSH]

I am with smokeywolf on this.
In a nut shell to me, cartridge OAL on a hunting rifle, is what length a loaded round will feed and extract (loaded) with no hickups or glitches.
On a match gun where pure accuracy is wanted/ needed, OAL is what it is. Along with feeding and extracting also.
Then to open up another can of worms throw in ogival OAL. That makes most folks really scratch their heads.
There is really no one maximum OAL to any cartridge. Bullet design and style will dictate that.
Another thing I get a kick out of is headspace. Within reason one can taylor headspace to what ever they want it to be. Friend had a 303 Brit. Said it had excessive headspace. I tinkered with it all one summer and got the old warhorse to shooting pretty good for what it was. Gave it back to him and explained what I did and he just looked at me totally buffaloed.
Young reloaders that don't read and understand what they are reading, may not grow to be old reloaders. From what I have seen if it goes bang or pow, they deem it a success and think they know a lot. They buy powder one pound at a time and primers by the hundred.

 

[35 shooter]

That zero interest thing in "actually learning how to" is happening more and more at very young ages with some it seems.


A lady i know(a grand mother) has a 15 year old girl grandchild to raise now.
The first thing the girl did was run up an astronomical cell phone bill and had the phone taken away from her.

After 3 days she asked her "granny" for the phone back so she could "look up definitions" on the internet for school work.

The reply she got (among others) from the grandmother was to use a dictionary and a set of encyclopedias.
She said the child just gave her a real blank and shocked look, kind of like she had just had water thrown in her face. She then just pouted and walked off.

When it comes to things like reloading or anything else in life, it seems to me the simple act of actually reading and researching a manual or book before asking questions and "earning" an answer, is becoming a "lost art".

 

[Ben]

Why would they want to learn anything about it if you'll do all the leg work for them.
We ( whether we like it or not ) are living in an " INSTANT " society.

It all needs to be instant. Reading, studying, asking intelligent questions is something that an awful lot of young people now have very little interest in.

Ben

 

[62chevy]

I started reloading at 60 and had to jump in with both feet due to shortages, Jan 2013, bought some primers and powder at a gun show. could not buy bullets for love of money so into casting I go. The only stuff I could find was a Lee Loader at Cabela's for 45 acp, a 160 grain Lee mold at Midway with a 10# RCBS pot and Lee ladle. Hot plate at Walmart and I was off casting. Load info on the small bullet was no where to be had for the 45 acp, only took 25 rounds to figure out what OAL to use using trial and error.

 

[Brad]

COL is a variable in any rifle. There is no right answer. Into the lands is great in some cases but don't try it with a lever acrion or a Ruger 1. Heck, different bullets want a different seating to get the right distance off the lands.

What people don't want to do is TRY something different. Failures are a great learning tool. Leaded barrels are a learning tool. If you aren't willing to fail then you aren't ever likely to really suceed.

Most new guys need to get off the damn computer and go cast some, load some and shoot some.

 

[freebullet]

I agree with most of what's been said already but, not all.

Those that want to learn anything find a way. Those that don't care won't learn even after you physically show them.

Evidenced by a friend I've walked through BOTH of my personal easy col finding methods informing me he broke the bolt handle off with a round still in the chamber of a beautiful older wood/blue 700 in 308.
He's been taught & still won't do it right. I call these people ASKHOLES. They ask questions have you show them the way then, they do something completely different. I love to hear their stories. I usually reply-well....I hate to say I tol.......

 

[smokeywolf]

I know they're out there, but it is hard to find youngsters who want to learn about casting and reloading. Neither one of mine who are still at home have cast yet, but both have watched me cast and both have reloaded. I know it's partly the times and the changes in technology and our world, but back in the '60s and '70s when a lot of kids were into cars, garage bands, and seeing how many beers they could drink before they started puking. At 17, I was in the garage casting and reloading for my favorite calibers; 30-30, 30-06, 40-65, 45-70 and 45 LC (didn't have 45 ACP dies).

 

[JSH]

Then we have the ones that read or heard somthing, ask a dozen people about it, they all disagree and reply that it is the craziest thing they ever heard. Then, they find one person that says it "might" work and they try it.
I have seen this done more and more as components get scarce off and on. Magnum primers because that was all I could find/get, etc seems to be the most common.
Some fast powders in cartridges they don't belong in is another.
I know of three guns within 10 miles of home that hVe been ruined because of such. None of them were disabled or maimed to where they couldn't function. All of them did leak red fluid. One has scars he will carry for life, slow burning powder imbedded in his hide and side of his face, that's what happens with marlin loads in a trap door. The load was somthing he "came" up with.
All of the above mentioned mishaps were folks over 50! I myself wonder how they got that far.

 

[JSH]

Why would they want to learn anything about it if you'll do all the leg work for them.
We ( whether we like it or not ) are living in an " INSTANT " society.

It all needs to be instant. Reading, studying, asking intelligent questions is something that an awful lot of young people now have very little interest in.

Ben

Well said.
Show me again is what I fell for. Pretty soon I had done it all for them. I was the fool. I just thought the guy was daft or really slow. Nope just lazy and sly like a fox.

 

[JWFilips]

Would never use someone else's COL / OAl That is determined by your bullet and rifle alone!
But I guess there are some "want to knows" out there that just need to plug in the numbers!

 

[fiver]

well for an autoloader there is basically an established oal that will work and it's generally what most kids are shooting these day's anyway.

when asked the oal question I give them the established answer of.
'well it depends'.
what do you want the gun to do?

ohhh you want it to work every time 100% of the time?
in what?

okay here is how you establish how to make that happen for your gun.
then I describe what the gun is doing and the role the bullet plays in feeding itself into the chamber.
once they understand WHY it needs to be that way they pay more attention to the oal,,, and the crimp,,, and the load details.
and they can also diagnose a problem easier.

 

[KHornet]

Rifles are like women, no to the same. That also applies to COL. Couldn't agree more with Ben!