OK PESKY FLIERS AGAIN OR QUESTIONABLE 222 REMINTON ACCURACY

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
This time I was shooting my Remington 700 VS .222with j'd bullets you know you try and try using your best reloading methods and use carefully selected components, you double check case lengths, and trim, if necessary, chamfer inside and out don't forget primer seating, things must be just right! weigh the powder charges, etc. , etc. after all this you gather up the goodies and run off to the range , your anticipation is extremely high, why shouldn't it be your ammo is perfectly assembled now at the range you try and slow yourself down, you set up the rests perfect! every thing "feels great" target in sight through the scope no strain on the body excellent !Ok ! time to chamber the first round.. in She goes!!!check sight picture ..pretty darn good NOW finger on the trigger damn!! I can see my heart beating, in goes the breath then release half HOLD.. SQUEEZE .. BANG! DANG THAT FELT GOOD !, a little low and to the right but that's ok we're trying for groups, accuracy will come later, one off and it felt "right', now for#2 get the cheek in the same place , breath squeeze follow through, ANOTHER ONE THAT FELT RIGHT!, check the target still only one hole! we're on a roll ! , #3 gets chambered and the process gets followed once again, AND STILL ONLY ONE HOLE! yup definitely on a roll! Now for #4 , careful don't change anything ..Bang! oops! something went wrong now there's two holes, oh well typical!!, might as well take my time with the last round. That one goes down range and feels right ,like the others.. check the target .. the original hole got a little bigger..OK 5 rounds not a bad group but it definitely has a flier! So the question is does there always have to be a "flier or two, is it me or the gun?
ANOTHER SESSION
, WHITECENTER IS 3/8"I BELIEVE THERE ARE 10 ROUNDS IN THAT ONE, but look at the fliers You know what it's still fun!!!!!the Story took place with a temp of 38 degrees bright sun. no wind, the loads were either 21 grs RX7 OR 20 grs 4198 AND Speer 52 GR HPBTM AND Remington 7 1/2 Primers. thanks for looking QS
 
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Ian

Well-Known Member
You're into "gnat's ass" territory, I can't believe you did that well with Speer. Buy better bullets if you want better groups than that. Berger would be a place to start. Sort your "flyer" cases out of the batch for next time, just in case.
 
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RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
It is neither! This has been discussed quite a bit this year on the CBA forum by the retired statistics professor, an engineer and shooters. Math was never my best subject in college, more like beer and girls which was why I got drafted, but I will try to produce a narrative that makes sense. If we look at the rifle, load and shooter as a connected system, there will be a cone of dispersion of some degree. The inside of the cone will have more shots than the outside of the cone, denser. Out of a hundred shots, fifty may have exactly the same path, but fifty will be towards the outside, but random in order of when they appear. One 5 shot group is only going to happen to have all high density shots rarely. It will likely have at least one of the "outliers". Ten shot groups will almost always have at least one of the "outliers" and 50 shot groups will certainly have at least one.

That is a most excellent combination of rifle, load and shooter. Under the same conditions, it should be able to shoot that size group 85% of the time. Congratulations!
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
just for a statistic I shoot 7 shot groups.
why?
that's how many times you have to shuffle a deck of cards to make all of them change places in the deck.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
Sure wish all my flyers went into one hole.....

Damn nice shooting. That isn’t an accident
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
Awesome shooting Dan! I need to keep my eyes open for a nice old triple duce!
 

Maven

Active Member
Fliers? I don't think so, qs! Normal range of variation, more likely (following John Alexander's thinking*), but regardless of what we call it, it is most certainly excellent shooting, qs!

*CBA president who also has written extensively about fliers (and with less mumbo jumbo than that retired professor (of Economics).
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
It takes all kinds, I guess. Me, I simply look at the target and see the 4th shot that "spoiled" the group hit the paper crooked. That tells me it had a very slight jacket or core anomaly affecting its balance. Focus in the bullet quality, even the most pedantic statistician (or economist) will agree that bullet quality is an absolute determinant of tight groups.
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
It takes all kinds, I guess. Me, I simply look at the target and see the 4th shot that "spoiled" the group hit the paper crooked. That tells me it had a very slight jacket or core anomaly affecting its balance. Focus in the bullet quality, even the most pedantic statistician (or economist) will agree that bullet quality is an absolute determinant of tight groups.
I have become a big fan of the Hornady ELD match bullets as far as jacketed stuff goes. Very consistent and very accurate at distance.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I have been looking at the sierra game changers as a potential rival to the ELD, and probably as a better hunting bullet.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
ELD bummers are great at 300 plus but a good flat base is better at 100.
Look at what the BR guys shoot, they are short flat base bullets.
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
Wind flags.....

Learning to shoot quickly,in an attempt to get them all downrange in the same condition(wind).....

Bag techniques with an emphasis on not disrupting the "set" with rough bolt opening/closing.....

Spend enough time behind a chrono seeing how the pressures applied to the stock can effect ES/SD.....

Dry fire practice with an aftermarket trigger......

Understanding parallax and having highly repeatable scope "innards" along with stress free mounting.....

Not all bedding compounds are created equally,harder is definitely not better....

Shoot more,think less....
 

Bret4207

St Lawrence river valley, NY
It may be a statistical reason, but when I shoot I can blame the fliers on the guy behind the trigger. He's blind, he doesn't have good feeling in the trigger finger and he shakes a little these days anyway. I can only wish that I could hold a group where the fliers looked like fliers and not some donut shaped bug holes around the aiming point.

Well done. My hat is off to you!
 

Eutectic

Active Member
quicksylver,
We all know about controlling our breathing for shooting tiny groups..... But the area you delve in now also needs the 'release' at the same sequence of your heartbeats for eliminating those fliers you show!!:rofl: Oh....... and don't worry about those 52gr Speer HP Match bullets! They'll go into one hole if everything else is right! Groups on Prairie Dogs are quite impressive as well....
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys for all the excellent advice and kind comments, you do know the groups wouldn't look nearly that good if you guys hadn't taught me to use a scope properly .. Brad Ian I am definitely going to try some different bullets, presently I only have Speer and Sierra 52 gr. HPBT's, I do want to try Burgers and FB designs @ 100 yds. and when it warms up i will be going to the 200 yd. Range..in the mean time I am going to be working on the bag rest up.