Old M70 . Why'd they do that ?

[RBHarter]

I've been going through the family heirlooms and making needed notes and doing the things that decades of use and disuse need to be done . Of course there are diamonds that just need to be dusted of and wiped down and there are a few that saw a lot of seasons a few shots and haven't been touched in a decade .

The latter is such the case in a 1957 purchased new in 1958 M70 06' . It had about 25% of the stock finish completely gone and 1/3 or more in various states of not stuck to the wood at all .

In the course of this I was reminded that of all the unique Mauser lended designs on hand it is the only one with 3 action screws and one in the barrel .
Blasphemous as it may be we have 2 that borrow some that have a single lug 1 screw and a barrel band which was a design success coming out of WWII . Dozens of 700s , 95s , and 98s we've had had only 2 action screws , even the Italian and Japanese cousins only had 2 screws . The possible exception would be the 03' or 1917s but not having had a complete example or that much inspection time I can only guess at the barrel bands .

So was there a reason for the 3rd action screw ? Added insurance to avoid patent details ? Just a work around for the magazine floor plate ? Does it really make a difference in action stability ?

The barrel screw I can see relative use but I have seen more rifles without the screw either rebarreled or restocked than with . So is the M70 Mauser like and wants for a free float or like the 03 and Mannlicher wants to be held down or tip pressured ?

That's a lot of questions ......

 

[fiver]

i'd float it.

 

[david s]

On the Mauser the trigger guard, magazine box is one piece. With the model 70 the trigger guard is one piece, the magazine box another and the floor plate yet another. The middle model 70 screw helps the trigger guard and floor plate assembly interlock. I imagine it was cheaper to manufacture the three-piece model 70 set up than machine a one-piece Mauser assembly. You can also use the barrel screw as something of a barrel tuner by adjusting how tight or lose the screw is twisted.

 

[RBHarter]

I don't know that I'll do anything more with it it's been a 2" rifle for 65 years I don't want mess up a good thing .

It's just different that's all . Those stupid 325&340 Savages shoot stupid little groups with half enough bolt lugs , action screws , and a barrel band that doesn't really seem to do anything . Then there's the Rifleman's rifle .

I figured someone here would have a book and detailed history about the R&D of it . It's early yet .

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I can't say with any authority, but I doubt it was an effort to avoid a patent. Too many other examples with 2 screws to be a patent issue.
My guess is some very conservative engineer thought it was needed and convinced the production managers that the extra cost/effort to add the 3rd screw was worth it. Later, it was likely decided that it wasn't needed.

 

[RicinYakima]

Springfield Armory spent ten of thousands of dollars and man hours figuring out how to make the 1903 rifle shoot well. It was their first really high pressure light weight rifle. Between 1901 and about 1927 they found that a pillar bedded the rear action screw that was tight and the only other place was the front of the stock under the bayonet band. The few thousandth gap behind the recoil lug would just touch the stock when the front action screw was moderately tight. This put about 7 pounds of up pressure on the heavy 1903 barrel. This worked because of the full stock and musket grain layout of the wood blank.

Winchester Model 54 and 70 have much lighter barrels and half stocks, so that would not work well. The stock forend is tightly bedded at the front but the barrel lug is not supposed to touch the stock. By tightening this screw, you can put some up pressure on the barrel. Jack O'Connor's method was to tighten the rear action screw and the barrel lug screw snug, and lightly tightening the front action screw.

Free floating barrels became popular in the 1950's after Harvey Anderson invented Acru-Glas. Now you didn't need any skill cutting barrel channels, could use cheap wood and it would shoot just fine with barrels with "V" threads. Not so much with barrels with square threads as they like to have the barrel vibrations dampened.

 

[JonB]

about 10 years ago, after I acquired a Pre-64 win mod 70 (30-06), I attempted to scope it.
When I bore sighted it, it shot 20+ inches high at 100yds.
I didn't have enough adjustment on the scope.
While investigating, probably at the suggestion of some bullet caster, I noticed a rubber pad in the stock, that put pressure on the barrel when the action was installed and screws tightened.
I bought a used aftermarket stock off ebay and had it pillar bedded so the barrel was floating.
It no longer shoots 20+ inches high.

 

[RicinYakima]

That was really common when folks sanded out the tip, and tightened all three screws; it shot 20 inches low. Rather than repair properly, they just shimmed it up (usually way too much). Nothing wrong with two pillar bedding on modern rifles.

 

[david s]

There's a book called THE RIFLEMANS RIFLE I believe about the model 70 rifles; I've not read this one. And you might look up AMERICAN RIFLE DESIGN AND PERFORMANCE by L R Wallack from the 1970's. Among the many genius features of the Mauser 98 action is the magazine trigger guard set up. The magazines were machined for each cartridge case. The magazines taper (back to front) is such that it matches the cartridges, and the rounds can't work their way forward under recoil and blunt the bullets nose on the front of the magazine. This took some math. It would also increase the cost if say Winchester wanted to use the Mauser style magazine instead of the pressed sheet metal magazine box that they used. They would have needed how many different trigger guard/magazines for a rifle chambered in 22 Hornet up to 375 H&H/458 WIN and all the offerings in between. If you read the older writers from the 1920 thru say the mid 1960's you will come to find just how treasured a true minute of angle rifle was. If you had a rifle that shot 1-inch groups at 100 yards, it got treated with kid gloves so as to not upset the shooting gods. Now if you take about any run of the mill pre 64 model 70 out today and put together a decent load it should do right around an inch or maybe even better. It wasn't the rifles back then that couldn't do minute of angle it was the bullets not being concentric. Back then there was quite a bit written about rifle barrel twist. Trying to get the perfect twist rate for a certain bullet weight/load. Again, bullets that aren't concentric take longer to settle down and fly without wobble. Not everything in the past was actually better back then bullets among them. Some of the rifles may have been better though.

 

[RicinYakima]

The main reason for better groups today, is better bullets, not better rifles.

 

[Mainiac]

Springfield Armory spent ten of thousands of dollars and man hours figuring out how to make the 1903 rifle shoot well. It was their first really high pressure light weight rifle. Between 1901 and about 1927 they found that a pillar bedded the rear action screw that was tight and the only other place was the front of the stock under the bayonet band. The few thousandth gap behind the recoil lug would just touch the stock when the front action screw was moderately tight. This put about 7 pounds of up pressure on the heavy 1903 barrel. This worked because of the full stock and musket grain layout of the wood blank.

Winchester Model 54 and 70 have much lighter barrels and half stocks, so that would not work well. The stock forend is tightly bedded at the front but the barrel lug is not supposed to touch the stock. By tightening this screw, you can put some up pressure on the barrel. Jack O'Connor's method was to tighten the rear action screw and the barrel lug screw snug, and lightly tightening the front action screw.

Free floating barrels became popular in the 1950's after Harvey Anderson invented Acru-Glas. Now you didn't need any skill cutting barrel channels, could use cheap wood and it would shoot just fine with barrels with "V" threads. Not so much with barrels with square threads as they like to have the barrel vibrations dampened.

Wow!!! Alot to ponder right here!!
Never thought about barrel thread type,,,thanks for sharing!

 

[david s]

Can't remember if I was told this or read it somewhere but supposedly when the US adopted the 03 Springfield the US paid Mauser for the use of some of the Mauser patents. That all went by the way of course during the Great War.

 

[RBHarter]

Can't remember if I was told this or read it somewhere but supposedly when the US adopted the 03 Springfield the US paid Mauser for the use of some of the Mauser patents. That all went by the way of course during the Great War.

What I read .......I don't remember where now , was that Springfield was actually sued for patent infringement in the 03' by Mauser .

Square threads vs V .

I fought an 1903A3 for 2 years before I gave up doubled my money at a show and was glad to be rid of it .

Savage 110s I've tinkered with and seen the difference in clearance bedding and screw tension .......I've also seen it do absolutely nothing for one ......

I'll get a couple more coats on it and see what all the little nudges do .
I'll look for the book too .

 

[RicinYakima]

What I read .......I don't remember where now , was that Springfield was actually sued for patent infringement in the 03' by Mauser .

Square threads vs V .

I fought an 1903A3 for 2 years before I gave up doubled my money at a show and was glad to be rid of it .

Savage 110s I've tinkered with and seen the difference in clearance bedding and screw tension .......I've also seen it do absolutely nothing for one ......

I'll get a couple more coats on it and see what all the little nudges do .
I'll look for the book too .

US and Germany had a good friendly agreement on the US using the Mauser stripper clip at $.05 each to $100,000 worth of stripper clips. The issue became after WW1, the US lost a court case on the spitzer bullet, that was more than the clips.

 

[Bret4207]

Not so much with barrels with square threads as they like to have the barrel vibrations dampened.

Interesting, I've never heard that about threading wanting different dampening.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

US and Germany had a good friendly agreement on the US using the Mauser stripper clip at $.05 each to $100,000 worth of stripper clips. The issue became after WW1, the US lost a court case on the spitzer bullet, that was more than the clips.

That's true. The U.S.A. and DWM came to an agreement before the U.S. involvement in WWI. The payment agreement became moot during the war. The Alien Property Custodian (a position created by the Trading with the Enemy Act) essentially seized those foreign patents during the war. After the war the amount owed was higher due to interest accumulated. There was a ruling in the early 1920's (1921? I think?) and the money for that judgement delivered to Germany in the late 1920's.
HOWEVER, one must put this into the context of the day. Prior to the collapse of the stock market in 1929, the U.S. economy was booming, so the payment to Germany wasn't that painful for the U.S.
And
Unlike France, the U.S.A. (and to some extent the U.K.) was not interested in severely punishing Germany during the early inter-war years after WWI. So, a payment to Germany in roughly 1928, was seen more as aid to a recovering country and less as satisfying a patent infringement suit.

 

[Winelover]

Just an FYI, the Classic series ran in the 90's has the three screw configuration. Paperwork included mentioned not to over tighten middle screw. IIRC, something on the order of 14 inch pounds.

 

[Charles Graff]

I am going on pure memory now, as I am to lazy to open up the gun safe, but it was the Pre-64 Winchester 70 Featherweight models that has the third action screw and the Pre-64 Standard weight models had two action screw plus the barrel screw on the barrel boss.

 

[Winelover]

I own three of the 90's era Classic Series. Two are featherweights, all have three screws.

 

[RBHarter]

This one seen in the whatcha doing thread is just a plain Jane Model 70 in 30 Government 06' with a Proof steel barrel . 3 action screws and a fore end barrel screw . It's a low 112,000 SN with script Winchester print logo barrel and action factory D&T for both top mounts and a side mount peep sight . It's a tank to pack , if it's a light weight .... 10# ain't light .