Powder burn rate

burbank.jung

Active Member
What is your experience using a powder on the burn rate chart closest to a current powder you are using that produces exceptional results? Will that next powder on the chart be the next best powder or just as good and the performance differ more as you work farther away from your current powder used?
 

Ian

Notorious member
It depends, but almost always no. Unique and Universal have very different properties, so does Titegroup and Bullseye even though they are close. Reloder 7, xmp5744 and 4198 are all in a group but are most definitely not interchangeable. Often, two powders next to each other will have different base composition and granule form so the burn characteristics (not to be confused with "speed") are quite different.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I support Ian's position whole heartedly! The rate (speed) that it burns doesn't really show the pressure curve inside the case. If you have to do that substitution, drop back to the minimum, not start, load of the faster powder.
 

burbank.jung

Active Member
I never switched powders since I never experienced a shortage like this. There were shortages before, but I was recently married and had to give up reloading for a few years. Back to powders. I notice that in the Lyman cast bullet book, chamber pressures vary depending on the powder. This made me wonder if IPSC and IDPA shooters choose powders with the most MV and lowest chamber pressure to reduce muzzle flip. As for rifles, can I use the load corresponding to the accuracy load/mv for my initial powder and assemble a small set of test loads +/- that accuracy load and find an accuracy load with the new powder. Assume that this range is within the load manual specs. Or, do the nodes vary based on an OCR or Ladder test even with powders next to each other. on the burn rate chart?
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I would ignore the Lyman accuracy loads, I think they are based on SD which often has nothing to do with accuracy.
I rarely look at powder burn rate charts- they really don’t tell you much.
Most shooters use a powder based on experience- what has worked well for them in the past. Much of that is based on trial and error in their guns.

I can assure you there are many, many ways to skin this cat. Key is to find what works for you, in your guns, with your bullets/cases/etc.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Agree with Ian. I found out the hard way that "the next faster powder" doesn't mean it's like all the powders proceed in a geometric type of step up or down. After I beat the bolt open I figured that the idea of cutting the new charge 10% and everything would be fine was a really, really dumb idea. And that wasn't anything close to a top end load. That was back around 1983, I hope I've gotten little bit smarter.
 

Spindrift

Well-Known Member
The burn chart will give you a rough guide to suitable applications for a powder, within the practice of "mainstream reloading". By which I mean reloading cartridges with jacketed bullets, at the upper end of the cartridge's performance envelope. So, for close neighbours in the burn chart, you'll probably find load data for similar jacketed bullet applications, and it will probably work OK.

Reloading cast bullets (or copper plated) involves some other considerations, however. Low friction bullets, loaded (often) at more or less reduced load intensity, offer atypical burn conditions. The ignitability of the powder becomes critical; flame inhibitors is not our friend here. Due to the vulnerable nature of our projectiles, the shape of the pressure curve is also important.

The Norma burn chart is very informative, as it offers information on both relative burn velocity and relative pressure, state the conditions under which the data are obtained - and the conditions are the same throughout the chart. It is available on their web page.

I assume you have access to mostly euro powders. I have some experience with Norma/Vihta/Vectan, and might be able to help you if you have concrete substitutions in mind.

H&N (of Germany) have a reloading book for their copper plated bullets (which work excellently, by the way) which contains reduced load data with euro powders.
 

burbank.jung

Active Member
So maybe a burn rate chart can be divided to three depending on properties such as single-base, double-base, and triple-base powders. I'm wondering if one base type powder is better for cast bullets and effects chamber pressure?
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
So maybe a burn rate chart can be divided to three depending on properties such as single-base, double-base, and triple-base powders. I'm wondering if one base type powder is better for cast bullets and effects chamber pressure?
DuPont's IMR powders, 4227 thru 4831, are all the same chemically and speed is dependent upon grain size and shape. If you have data for most of them, you can work your way to a starting load with another in the same group. Never tried it with any of the new powders introduced in the last 20 years.

Double based powders, with nitroglycerin, are not doable that way because of the varying amounts contained in the powder formulation. Ball powders have varying chemical deterrent coatings, so again, there is not reliable relationship between them. FWIW
 

Ian

Notorious member
So maybe a burn rate chart can be divided to three depending on properties such as single-base, double-base, and triple-base powders. I'm wondering if one base type powder is better for cast bullets and effects chamber pressure?

It is both impractical and potentionally dangerous to attempt to categorize smokeless propellants or compartmentalize your thinking about their uses and applications. Each is unique in some way, do your best to learn about each one's particular characteristics and how to use them to your advantage.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
All you need to know about it.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
This kind of comes back to the 3 10 second race cars .

I've found data for Unique from 12,000 to 40,000 PSI , it thrives from 15-30,000 psi . Oddly enough the 40,000 psi data was for a 264 WM . The mere idea of Unique in that much bottle neck just gives me the willies . It was at charge values about the same as 1-1/8 oz 12ga . Unique is typically used as a 14-25 kpsi powder in shotguns and pistols with more straight than necked cases .

IMR 4350 generally considered a slow magnum powder typically avoids anything straighter than 30/30 and 06' . It doesn't even start wake up and work under 25kpsi and it doesn't clean up under 30kpsi . It makes a great , or at least for me , cast bullet powder in every thing from 308 up . Even in the 358 Win . It's a great jacketed powder also in 308 and 06' case .
It didn't work for beans in the 6.8 but it's very satisfying in x39 with a 200 gr cast . Ken Waters said it wasn't great in the 45-70 where 4831 shined for groups , I'm just going to take his word for and skip the test .

H322 and 4198 are pretty close together with 10x right there with jacketed in 222,223, and 6.8 they're right there with a couple of gr charge difference and MV being within a 100 fps . Groups are similar as well . 10X bordered on bolt abuse in the carbine gas guns . H322 delivered the goods and was within normal function in the gas guns although at the best groups slightly over gassed .
H4198 gives significantly better gas gun groups and is the best in the bolt guns . It just won't run in the carbine gas guns because as near as I can figure out it holds the pressure to high in the case keeping the case stuck to the walls while not having enough pressure to overcome it for ejection so the bolt hangs on the mag follower instead of the hold open . To make things uglier increasing the charge makes it worse .

I didn't have 10 or 4198 to try in the 358 Win but H322 didn't want to play with anything over 200 gr oddly enough 4350 to the bottom of the shoulder delivered little bitty groups with 200 and 250 gr bullets , running the 250s 2100 fps MV right in the middle of jacketed speeds.

With data available that over laps for a fast shotshell powder and a slow rifle powder , once the slowest available for magnum rifles , one has trouble sorting it all out . Some of it just doesn't make any sense.

H322 shines in 222&233 , it's too much of a good thing in any 06' case but it comes back in 45-70 which just happens to share case capacity with the 06' . It didn't shoot well for me . It does it within Trapdoor level data .

I now retreat to the race cars .
3 that have a 100 mph elapsed time.
Unique is like that Honda that hits 125 about the 1/16th mile and stays there all the way to the 1/4 mile lights .
H322 is like the turbo V6 that takes to the 1/8 to get 145 and hold it to the 1/4 mile lights .
4350 and 4831 are packed like that 4000# Hemi sled that's only doing 75 at the 1/16 doesn't break 100 until it's almost to the 1/8 where it tries to climb out of slicks and breaks the clocks at 160 mph .

The Honda looks great out of the blocks , and it's almost a race after the 1/8 with the V6. Outta nowhere the Hemi shows up and breaks the lights for a dead heat . The difference is that the race it 16-26" in a rifle , at 16" for a particular cartridge, say 30/30 , it doesn't matter which powder you shoot they will all be the same at the 1/8 with the slowest powder outrun . Put them in a 24" barrel now you're running the full 1/4 mile .
As proof of concept I offer the Lyman manual at least #48 .
Look up the 458 WM with 405 JSP and the 45-110 with the 405 JSP . The difference between them is 20,000 psi and 10" of barrel .

So it goes with powder selection and load manipulation.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
DuPont's IMR powders, 4227 thru 4831, are all the same chemically and speed is dependent upon grain size and shape. If you have data for most of them, you can work your way to a starting load with another in the same group. Never tried it with any of the new powders introduced in the last 20 years.

Double based powders, with nitroglycerin, are not doable that way because of the varying amounts contained in the powder formulation. Ball powders have varying chemical deterrent coatings, so again, there is not reliable relationship between them. FWIW
Interesting on the IMR's! Never knew that!
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
This kind of comes back to the 3 10 second race cars .

I've found data for Unique from 12,000 to 40,000 PSI , it thrives from 15-30,000 psi . Oddly enough the 40,000 psi data was for a 264 WM . The mere idea of Unique in that much bottle neck just gives me the willies . It was at charge values about the same as 1-1/8 oz 12ga . Unique is typically used as a 14-25 kpsi powder in shotguns and pistols with more straight than necked cases .

IMR 4350 generally considered a slow magnum powder typically avoids anything straighter than 30/30 and 06' . It doesn't even start wake up and work under 25kpsi and it doesn't clean up under 30kpsi . It makes a great , or at least for me , cast bullet powder in every thing from 308 up . Even in the 358 Win . It's a great jacketed powder also in 308 and 06' case .
It didn't work for beans in the 6.8 but it's very satisfying in x39 with a 200 gr cast . Ken Waters said it wasn't great in the 45-70 where 4831 shined for groups , I'm just going to take his word for and skip the test .

H322 and 4198 are pretty close together with 10x right there with jacketed in 222,223, and 6.8 they're right there with a couple of gr charge difference and MV being within a 100 fps . Groups are similar as well . 10X bordered on bolt abuse in the carbine gas guns . H322 delivered the goods and was within normal function in the gas guns although at the best groups slightly over gassed .
H4198 gives significantly better gas gun groups and is the best in the bolt guns . It just won't run in the carbine gas guns because as near as I can figure out it holds the pressure to high in the case keeping the case stuck to the walls while not having enough pressure to overcome it for ejection so the bolt hangs on the mag follower instead of the hold open . To make things uglier increasing the charge makes it worse .

I didn't have 10 or 4198 to try in the 358 Win but H322 didn't want to play with anything over 200 gr oddly enough 4350 to the bottom of the shoulder delivered little bitty groups with 200 and 250 gr bullets , running the 250s 2100 fps MV right in the middle of jacketed speeds.

With data available that over laps for a fast shotshell powder and a slow rifle powder , once the slowest available for magnum rifles , one has trouble sorting it all out . Some of it just doesn't make any sense.

H322 shines in 222&233 , it's too much of a good thing in any 06' case but it comes back in 45-70 which just happens to share case capacity with the 06' . It didn't shoot well for me . It does it within Trapdoor level data .

I now retreat to the race cars .
3 that have a 100 mph elapsed time.
Unique is like that Honda that hits 125 about the 1/16th mile and stays there all the way to the 1/4 mile lights .
H322 is like the turbo V6 that takes to the 1/8 to get 145 and hold it to the 1/4 mile lights .
4350 and 4831 are packed like that 4000# Hemi sled that's only doing 75 at the 1/16 doesn't break 100 until it's almost to the 1/8 where it tries to climb out of slicks and breaks the clocks at 160 mph .

The Honda looks great out of the blocks , and it's almost a race after the 1/8 with the V6. Outta nowhere the Hemi shows up and breaks the lights for a dead heat . The difference is that the race it 16-26" in a rifle , at 16" for a particular cartridge, say 30/30 , it doesn't matter which powder you shoot they will all be the same at the 1/8 with the slowest powder outrun . Put them in a 24" barrel now you're running the full 1/4 mile .
As proof of concept I offer the Lyman manual at least #48 .
Look up the 458 WM with 405 JSP and the 45-110 with the 405 JSP . The difference between them is 20,000 psi and 10" of barrel .

So it goes with powder selection and load manipulation.
Great post. You see the barrel length difference come into ply with the pistol caliber carbines like the 357. You REALLY see it with the little 18th century rounds like the 32 S+W in which a cartridge known for doing 650-700 fps suddenly becomes supersonic + in a rifle barrel!
 

rj-35-40

New Member
I would ignore the Lyman accuracy loads, I think they are based on SD which often has nothing to do with accuracy.
I rarely look at powder burn rate charts- they really don’t tell you much.
Most shooters use a powder based on experience- what has worked well for them in the past. Much of that is based on trial and error in their guns.

I can assure you there are many, many ways to skin this cat. Key is to find what works for you, in your guns, with your bullets/cases/etc.
BRAD,
or should I say, "Benevolent Overlord" (great handle btw)

"Use what has worked in the past"
We wish..

Having to go to find different solutions because of a mis managed country is forcing us to explore other powders.
Stepping away of the political perspective, I wish 'Quickload' or some other ballistic software worked on a MAC
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Quickload is amazing and has given me some insight at times.

What helps is some of the older manuals that list cast loads with the “dots” and 2400, newer manuals leave those out.