Powder coat questions

Pick and place 100 bullets in 10 minutes? Sheez
I can dump and cook 300 in 20 minutes.
I have no need for highly accurate pc rifle bullets.
Revolver, lever gun, and pistol is 95% of my cast shooting. I appreciate how you do you Ian, it’s just not my cup of tea. Or scotch. Or whatever your drink of choice is. ;)
 
I mean, if speed is the only consideration, that's painstakingly slow compared to what you can do with regular lube in a star sizer. You could have 500, if not more 100% lubed and sized, ready to load in 20 minutes.
 
Putting on gas checks tonight reminded me why I hate them. The new Lee 312-155 mold is dropping very large and you have to check them before you coat them. It doesn't help the bullets are coming out 0.3145" before coating. It seems its always too big or too small with Lee.

If Arsenal ever gets their web page working again I night get their version of this bullet. But a plain base.
 
popper said:
Parchment paper turns brown and curls, foil will stick. Been using grill 'coppered' sheet for a couple years, no problem.
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100%. I have used every sheet for HUNDREDS of bakes.
Flat THE Best thing for powder coating bullets.

If ya don't try them your missing a major savings and ease of use.

Ya can lead a horse to water, but what the ignorant animal does where it gets there is often amusing...

Im a standup guy. I have been making more rifle bullets than pistol and everything you can do to create a more consistent bullet benefits you in accuracy.

Powder Dusted fingers work best for many folks. I use hemostats. Mini Silicone powder trays for longer skinny bullets that wont stand.

CW
 
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Tomme boy said:
Putting on gas checks tonight reminded me why I hate them. The new Lee 312-155 mold is dropping very large and you have to check them before you coat them. It doesn't help the bullets are coming out 0.3145" before coating. It seems its always too big or too small with Lee.

If Arsenal ever gets their web page working again I night get their version of this bullet. But a plain base.
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I shared this quite a few years ago, and I don't really know why it hasn't caught on. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone else do it, and it's kind of ridiculous Lee hasn't done it themselves.

I've tried a number of solutions to oversized gas check shanks. A gas check expander is the commonly talked about solution, but those suck. I'm sorry NOE, but I would rather stick a fork in my eyeball, than expand gas checks one by one then force them off since they don't just fall off on that dumb expander set.

At least as of today, I have not encountered a mold that I could easily put a gas check on bare, but was tough when powder coated. For that to be the case, they would have to cast in that narrow .286" or .287" window. Any bigger, and you are forcing them on no matter what. Even .287" pushes on pretty hard if you get them started. Any smaller, and even with coating, they slip on with a gentle push. Of course we hope for an ideal world where all shanks are .283"ish diameter, plus or minus .001". We obviously don't live in that world. If you happen to have a mold that just barely makes it in that window, then maybe a gas check before coating can help. This is of course 30 caliber, other calibers would have different dimensions

I haven't been so lucky. My bad molds have all been beyond that. I don't know that I have ever had an undersized shank to where a copper gas check wouldn't crimp on tight. I've had a few that are oversized but quite a bit. I modified a tool to make the job easy. It's super easy to make, basically they are ready made.

They are called Lee Collet Crimp dies. All you do is find a cartridge that has a neck size about the gas check shank you want. These dies have quite a bit of adjustment, probably .010" each way, so it only has to be ballpark. For 30 caliber, I used a 243 WSSM. I would try a 308 one for a 35/38 caliber.

You could use these just as they are out of the box. To make it a little easier, all I did was cut some of the top off. You can't go fully flush with the collet, but leave maybe 3/16", now you can easily handle bullets. All it takes is an angle grinder. Just set the bullets on top, and pull the handle. You can adjust them to any size you want, bare, coated, anything. It doesn't get any easier.

shank1.jpg


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Brad made me one of the prototype GC expanders for 30 cal. Works awesome! He blued mine and the checks fall right off. Love it. I’m usually never loading more than 50 rounds at a time so being a bit slow is a non issue for me.
 
I have hundreds of molds.
I have those that require GC before coating and those with varying degrees of difficulty seating a check. I even have a few and all are Saeco that a GC falls off WITH OUT PC!! Its as if there were designed for PC.

Now not all of us have learned to coat thinly. Years ago going round and round with Ian I was able to coat FAR FAR thinner than before. JUST THAT allows most every mold to work aduquately with a GC AFTER coating. BUT it takes tryal and error knowing if a power will Coat thinly. NOT ALL
WILL!!! As a rule The most popular EASTWOOD will NOT coat thinly. But mixing can get you there.

There is another use of GC first and that is supressor use. Most all will tell you NEVER use cast let along NEVER EVER use a GC bullet and that is 100% the best advice.
Now just using cast, IMHO came from lube and debris associated with traditionally lubed cast. (Just look at the muzzle of most after a session and you will find lube. That would be inside your supressor.) Well a PC bullet IS A JACKETED bullet and also VERY CLEAN! It remains attached to the bullet and recovered bullets from the back stop will Prove this out. (If yours are not thats a issue with your application.) Anyhow it secures that GC very very securely.

About installing GC on PC bullets. NO they usually will not snap or "tap" on the same as traditionally lubed bullets. I have a dozen videos showing the use of the NOE tool that makes your SS Press like a arbor. Using a top
Punch and anvil it seats the GC absolutely square and completely. NO MORE relying upon a given bullets diameter to provide resistance to seat a check??? (something I always said was wrong.)
My checked are absolutely completely seated and absolutely square. Yes occasionally and only sometimes, it will shave a curl of PC. Some may freak and call foul and in a perfect world and when making best you can this is not desureable. But remember the PC application is not nearly as consistent either.. I know my coatings are very thin, when I want them to be.

CW
 
I polished the expander and rounded the corners so a check could be tapped on with a hammer and fall off when pushed a bit.
This is the advantage of custom making parts- they can be finished to work perfectly. That is expensive when trying to g to make a profit.
 
I can assure you both, if you try sizing the shank, rather than seating checks with a press, or messing around with that NOE expander, you will never go back. It's that much better. If the shank is the correct size, the gas checks are square no matter what you do.
 
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blackpowdertom said:
I can assure you both, if you try sizing the shank, rather than seating checks with a press, or messing around with that NOE expander, you will never go back. It's that much better. If the shank is the correct size, the gas checks are square no matter what you do.
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I have zero issues with my practice. Im merely suggesting a alternate method for others.

But again the problem isn't the bullets their shanks or the checks. The problem is the bullets never saw the invention of High tech Coatings.
 
blackpowdertom said:
I can assure you both, if you try sizing the shank, rather than seating checks with a press, or messing around with that NOE expander, you will never go back. It's that much better. If the shank is the correct size, the gas checks are square no matter what you do.
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Well, I designed and gave the design to NOE for the check expander. I can assure you that when made exactly right the check just fall off.
When I need to fit a check on a fat shank I will stick with my tool. It just works.
 
CWLONGSHOT said:
I have zero issues with my practice. Im merely suggesting a alternate method for others.

But again the problem isn't the bullets their shanks or the checks. The problem is the bullets never saw the invention of High tech Coatings.
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I guess we disagree on that second statement. I mean, it's technically correct, but the shanks are the problem 100%. Your typical 30 caliber bullet was designed with a shank of .283" or .284" diameter. At least todays' are. Many decades ago, well before I was born, apparently Lyman had a tapered check, that went on a tapered shank, but that's a different discussion. The problem is for whatever reason, a lot of manufacturers have a harder time keeping a good tolerance on the existing gas check shank dimension. Or in your example. Lee is just all over the place regardless.

If you have a gas check shank of the correct diameter, coating is entirely irrelevant to how the gas checks fit on. They fit on just the same, and the crimp on just the same. I should qualify that statement that I am ONLY using Smokes clear powder coat or Hi tek coating. The powder coat is on average about .0015" thick. 3 coats of Hitek is barely measurable, it's under .001". Also, while I use Gator and Sage checks for the rare times like 44 caliber handgun, 95% of my gas checks are Hornady 30 caliber. I should probably do a comparison to see if Sages 30 caliber fit different.

Using a Smoke clear powder coat with Hornady gas checks, they fit on with no resistance if the gas check shank is under .285" before coating. Maybe the tiniest bit of drag on the bigger end, but it's not like you have to smash them on. They slip right on with light finger pressure.

I don't know that I have fired a single 308 round in the past year that wasn't through a suppressor. The statement that you need to glue them on is incorrect.

@Brad, I'm sorry if you feel I insulted your idea, but I am talking about NOE's version. I won't apologize for the opinion that the NOE gas check expander is terrible. It is the single worst, most gimmicky product I have wasted my money on. I like NOE, I have a lot of their molds, but a bad product, is a bad product.

Even if your version really does work as smooth as can be, there's no way it will ever be as nice as using a Lee collet die to resize the shank.

If you don't want to use it, don't, but don't steer people away from a possibly even better solution.
 
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blackpowdertom said:
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Even if your version really does work as smooth as can be, there's no way it will ever be as nice as using a Lee collet die to resize the shank.

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Either way, you'd have to handle the bullet or the gas check one more time than if the simply fit each other.

Says the guy who goes to the trouble to make his own gas checks, which is a fiddly business to begin with.

I see the two ways as a draw for efficiency and effectiveness, with the tie-breaker being personal preference. Either way works and the more options for others to try is all the better.


Not necessarily a better way or THE way, but ANOTHER WAY: When using my aluminum gas checks, I've found that 20 minutes or so on the electric hot-plate ('checks right-side-up) set to high will soften them sufficiently to make them press on easily and then cling to the bullet better as well.


I'm open to trying other creative solutions, but what I ultimately settle on, I settle on because it suits me, my moulds, my gas checks, resources and work-habits. Sometimes I'm happy to stick with what's working for me even if there seems to be an obvious better solution - like silicone/copper mats for baking PC'd bullets compared my parchment paper preference.

I'll bet no one ever bailed their Missuz out with a silicone mat when she runs out of parchment paper in the kitchen after mixing up what she wanted to bake! I've gained (momentary) hero status with that and waxed paper already. ;)

Now, if any of you ever eat at my house, rest assured that I don't give her the parchment I've baked PC on or the waxed paper I dried TL'd bullets on.
 
the check openers could use a stripper,,, simply a washer with a proper size hole in the center...
that's what i use for the junk i ground [changeable screwdriver shaft] to open the couple of checks that need it around here.
 
How can you even say its a draw when you haven't tried it?

Even if you had a gas check expander that you could just flick them off, I'm telling you, it's not a close comparison. Handling gas checks sucks to begin with, I don't even do it when putting them on bullets. They have to be set just right on the top, and at least with the NOE one, they don't just sit on there. You have to balance them just right, hope it doesn't tip as you raise the ram, and then take them back off. Again, that's assuming it is Brads smoothed one, the NOE one you can't get off by hand, you need something to pry them off. For me to pick up a gas check, then carefully place it on top, that has to be 20 seconds each, if not more. Then you have to get them off an into a cup or something. It could honestly take an hour to do 100 gas checks, I'm not even sure, it feels like an eternity. With the NOE one I think the most I've ever done was 20 at a time, and it took forever.

By comparison the modified Lee collet die you just pick up a bullet and set it there. At least for me, picking up 30 caliber bullets is not hard. They don't have to be placed perfect, they self center, self seat. It's faster than sizing bullets. If you put a cup right next to the press you don't even have to pick them off. I just grab the next bullet, and knock it off into the cup as I place the next one. I've never gone a full hour, but I bet you could do 1000 in an hour.

I'm not here to disparage Brad, or tell anyone else their way is wrong. What I am saying is there are other ways that are potentially better, and unless you have tried them, do not turn others away from them. Sizing a gas check shank has potential to be way faster, easier, and more accurate than expanding gas checks.

P.S. I should have explained, but I don't pick up gas checks with my fingers when sizing bullets, it is way too tedious. I dump them on a tray, and just set the bullets on them. It's way easier that way.
 
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7 degree included angle, harden to 65 Rockwell, polish to 10K grit. Checks will never stick, flick them off with your thumbnail. Costs money though, or a quart of hand-collected and painstakingly produced homemade maple syrup.

20210316_225401.jpg

That said, at my house if commercial Hornady checks don't fit, the mould either gets fixed or goes in the scrap pile.
 
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That's ultimately the best solution over time. Still, a lot of people only have a Lee, Lyman, Saeco etc. mold, or maybe their best shooting mold happens to have an oversized shank, and they can't afford to buy a better version from another brand yet.

I still have a Lee 309-170-F mold that I can't get rid of, since it is one of the best shooting molds I have. It is near perfection other than having an oversized gas check shank. A $15 collet die will fix that, and any problem molds in the future.
 
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blackpowdertom said:
How can you even say its a draw when you haven't tried it?...
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To ME, it is. Same amount of fiddling. This is not to say your idea is not a great idea - I'm just ME and I like to have some things MY way. As far as this hobby goes, I don't do all the "right" things, but I endeavor to enjoy myself doing it.

If what BRAD does makes BRAD happy, and what YOU do makes YOU happy, it's a draw. What I do makes ME happy, but that doesn't mean my way is the best way, either in intrinsic terms or subjectively.

We're not competing with "the other guy" to sell what we produce to make a profit. It's about what makes us happy. It's a hobby.

I fully appreciate your innovative offering, as it's a very clever idea. For me, I balk at buying more stuff to keep track of and get my kicks finding ways to do things without buying more stuff. Just one of my fun things I do.

There is no BEST way, unless we're competing to make money and the BEST way is the one making money.

I appreciate your wisdom on the collet dies. There may come a day - an application - where I have no other way to turn, but your way saves my day. It's another tool in my toolbox to get me out of a pinch if I have the right collet die.
 
Jeff, I just presented the idea to you. You haven't tried it yet.

Try it first, then get back to me.

All I'm asking for is for people to hold their feelings back until they have actually tried something and formed a proper opinion.
 
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