Powder gone bad in the case

[4060MAY]

found the brass, when looking for something else
the case that is opened up is the one that blew in the rifle, Savage Mod 12bvss, 308w, problem when my friend was loading the rifle he did not see the corrosion on the case
there were 25 rounds in the box, some had cracks on the bottom, the others were fully corroded inside

 

[Snakeoil]

Factory or reloads?

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Id bet alot that all from corrosive primers not your powder.

 

[Walks]

I was always told that .308/.762 was loaded with non-corrosive primers.

 

[Snakeoil]

.308 uses a boxer primer. As far as I know, only Berdan primed ammo can be corrosive and not all is. The other point is the primers as-is are not corrosive. It is after they are fired, the compounds produced during ignition are corrosive, namely sodium chloride and potassium chloride, both of which are salts, the first probably sitting on your kitchen table.

 

[Jeff H]

Best friend had a big jug (83) of surplus 4895 which went bad in the jug. All I remember is that it clumped and smelled "funny."

I've struggled a bit with brass my dad loaded anywhere from ten years ago to present, on which the necks have been splitting. Brand new brass, nickle and brass, different powders, different calibers and makes of brass. One thing I noted was that the bullets and inside the case neck verdigris formed. No idea how that would have affected shooting them.

These were not nearly as bad as those shown in the original post, on the contrary - you have to look REALLY hard to see the cracks in the necks, pr twist the bullets. I don't trust anything he has loaded up now, because I have no idea what is causing it.

I'm wondering if the powder went bad and caused the brass problem or if the brass problem caused the powder to go bad?

If either.

EDIT: Ammonia is no good for brass. As far as I can tell, you don't even have to get it ON the brass. Apparently, being exposed to the fumes for a period of time can make the brass brittle and crack. I've seen this mostly on case NECKS.

 

[Walks]

About 20yrs ago I finally got around to shooting up a 200rd Portuguese Battle pack that I'd been holding for 10-15yrs. It was light loaded for their version of the G3. Cleaned it a week later, no sign of corrosion. Sold the M1A shortly there after, brass went with it, so I don't know if it was Berdan primed or not.

 

[RBHarter]

I'm not a med or chem student the science has likely changed since my bio science classes . Ammonia was then a significant portion of urea which makes up almost all of our urine and a large part of our sweat .

Just like some people eat jewelry I would imagine it could happen to cases and bullets where sweaty hands were involved . Kind of a perfect storm situation but given the right conditions . Long ago in my late teens and early 20s my hands stayed damp all the time not enough to wrinkle but I left great prints on everything I touched . I ate a Timex watch case and damaged an inexpensive silver ring . Copper or brass would green me in hours in the summer time I would occasionally have a greenish patch on my thigh just about the bottom of my pockets .
These days it's more oil and I've been wearing a good silver ring almost 5 years . Oddly enough I was never hard on iron or steel .

I can't think of any lubes in normal use that might do that , nothing petroleum or wax based anyway . I'm not a chem student though .

 

[glassparman]

Moisture . . . at some point. That's what that looks like to me. I've pulled down literal thousands of surplus and commercial ammo rounds and it is always water that gets them.

Early U.S. Boxer primers were corrosive. Swedish (norma) Berdan have not been since the late 20's. Best test is to fire a case with primer and nothing else against some clean bare steel. Spray a little water on it and let sit for a few days. It will be rusty with corrosive salts.

You can't say "corrosive" simply because of it being Berdan. Many countries used many compounds. I have shot up a ton of those 6.5 Swedish blanks by pulling the red wood projo, dumping the powder and then load with 4895 and my bullets. Those blanks were re-primed by norma in the 80's. All Berdan and non corrosive.

The other thing I have seen with reloads is someone did not clean the cases properly before loading. Oil and moisture will play havoc with the powder and/or primer and start breaking it all down. Powder usually won't go bad on its own. As long as it is stored properly, it should last a very long time.

Just my .02¢ worth of opinions.

Mike

 

[Tomme boy]

Tumble cleaned with brasso, it has ammonia in it

 

[Snakeoil]

Found this article on primers. Lots of specifics.

Mercury, potassium, lead: Do corrosive primers harm brass? - TheGunMag - The Official Gun Magazine of the Second Amendment Foundation

By Art Merrill | Contributing Editor Here’s a question handloaders end up fielding now and again: “Is it OK to reload brass that originally fired corrosive primers?” Most recently, the question posed to me was in regards specifically to military surplus M2 Ball .30-06 brass. While a great many...

www.thegunmag.com

Regarding powder going bad, yup, can happen. On of the manuals I have mentions giving a jug of old powder the sniff test. If it smells bad, it is bad.

 

[fiver]

wet cases that sit can turn green/white and suck the zinc out
it can also happen just from sitting in a cardboard box, even if the box is waxed.
a little vibration over time, having too clean case necks.
they all can cause an issue.

 

[glassparman]

I guess I'm just too spoiled living here in the Mojave desert. I pray for rain . . . And still it is like 10% humidity all year! LOL

I still pack all my ammo in ammo cans with those Zcorr can liners to protect from humidity. Yeah, like I need that much protection.

I have smelled that sour smell in powder before.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I was always told that .308/.762 was loaded with non-corrosive primers.

I believer AMERICAN stuff all is. But who knows what country mighta loaded it...

Thats corrosion plain and simple

 

[Jeff H]

Tumble cleaned with brasso, it has ammonia in it

It does and ammonia is not good for brass, especially thin brass, like cartridge brass.

"Some" say that its OK if you let the ammonia evaporate from the media before tumbling, and that may or may not be true. From what I've read, I suspect conjecture, but it may by coincidence be true. Depending on how one is using it, whether the brass is otherwise cleaned after exposure, how long and how intense the exposure was, all factor in. There are many stories about how some have gotten away with it and don't believe it, and other stories of obvious failure, but there is plenty of non-anecdotal information explaining it.

Just keep an eye on your brass over time. The way I noticed it was ammo, which had been loaded for over a year - necks, on bottle-neck cartridges split and you don't necessarily see it. When you get three-inch groups from a rifle and load that shoot three EIGHTS-inch groups, you know something is amiss.

My dad was having terrible problems with brass failures, due to brittleness. I discovered he was pouring Brasso (a LOT) into his media/brass as the tumbler was running. We spent several years weeding out the affected brass. NOW, I am running across more of his brass, which is failing at the necks, specifically. No apparent corrosion, until you pull the bullets (no inertia-puller needed) and there is corrosion on the bullet and inside the case where the crack was. Not sure if this is a vestige from the previous issue or not, but it breaks one's faith in otherwise very nice-looking handloads. The failures I am seeing now are from lots purchased after he stopped using Brasso in his tumbler.

 

[popper]

#4 showed the problem, toss it all. Pay attention. Bro was going to sell his heritage 22. asked if green 22 was OK. Nope.

 

[4060MAY]

VV N133, FC brass, third time reloaded , WLR primers, Hornady Jacketed bullets, brass has never been tumbled, ammo had been loaded for about 2-3 years, not absolutely sure, powder went bad all by itself, pulled all the ctgs. that were left, 18, all were corroded inside and the base of the bullet was green, took some effort to remove the bullets from the brass, RCBS Collet puller,

The piece of brass with the split up the side, I crushed it and that's how it split, I normally crush bad cases, not to betempted to use them again

on a side note, my friend had about 500 rds loaded , .222 for a prairie dog hunt, loaded 5 years ago, all of the rounds looked like mine when he pulled them down, he was using VV N133

I had 5 individual pounds of VV N130, mfg 2011, from an estate, one went bad about a month after opening it in 2019, I load at the range, opened the bottle up, smelled bad, was clumpy, dumped it on the ground, the other ones were fine, I'm on my last pound of the powder, shoots well in my 30-30

Only reason for me using VV powder, picked some up form a friend, and some from an estate, VV N133 is the powder for 6MM PPC
my goto powder for .308W and cast bullets is Reloder 7, which I never had a problem with

We talked to the VV Rep. , He replaced the powder, so not a total loss

The point of this posting is so there is awareness that any product can go bad, without any notice
if you are shooting and the gun isn't performing as it should be, might the ammo