Primer test
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
I would suggest a 180 or heavier with the H-110. Bullet weight goes a long ways to making H-110 your friend.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
So- other than the WSP anomaly, which (If it were me) I would retest,
Unique meets it's "every body knows" of "any primer will do fine:".
My bet is that this will NOT be true with IMR4227. But, only Mr. Radar
knows the real answer.
While single digit SDs seem wonderful, I have not found any really consistent correlation'
between low ES and small groups on target with handguns. Unique under 200
SWCs in .45 ACP can have 100 or more ES and shoot really good (perhaps not gilt edge)
groups. How in the heck that works, I have no idea, but it is true. Go to 230s and tighten
up the crimp a lot and the ES drops to more like 25 with little or no change in groups.
Why? Just because....
Reporting observations, theory on why is lagging - several hypotheses.
Bill
Unique meets it's "every body knows" of "any primer will do fine:".
My bet is that this will NOT be true with IMR4227. But, only Mr. Radar
knows the real answer.
While single digit SDs seem wonderful, I have not found any really consistent correlation'
between low ES and small groups on target with handguns. Unique under 200
SWCs in .45 ACP can have 100 or more ES and shoot really good (perhaps not gilt edge)
groups. How in the heck that works, I have no idea, but it is true. Go to 230s and tighten
up the crimp a lot and the ES drops to more like 25 with little or no change in groups.
Why? Just because....
Reporting observations, theory on why is lagging - several hypotheses.
Bill
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F
freebullet
Guest
I don't know if case fill will reduce es, but can tell ya midrange to upper midrange book level loads have worked best for me in x39 & 357 handgun. Another characteristic I've noticed, once it starts burning clean your near good performance. She starts getting dirty again & everything seems to fall apart at the upper end. If the case isnt half to 3/4 full, position sensitivity will be an issue. That's a few things I noticed/experienced, lookin forward to your results. Specifically if the mag primers will increase the clean burn zone & the accuracy usually found near by.
Got out to shoot today. Early morning lighting is bad for this as the sun is low and on the right side. Sight glare is an issue.
Interesting to see how little variation there is among most of the loads with a few much lower.
WSP and WSR are the clear winners for group size, first and last groups I fired too.
Interesting to see how little variation there is among most of the loads with a few much lower.
WSP and WSR are the clear winners for group size, first and last groups I fired too.
Yep, with 4227.
Going up 1/2 gr didn't really increase velocity much but it did improve groups and consistency. Might just try another 1/2 gr with the Win primers.
Wise advice.
F
freebullet
Guest
Interesting results. Lowest sd not providing best groups, it happens. Es?
ES is someting I can get but didn't write down. None were anything to write home about.
The two groups at 2 1/4" are about as good as I can do at 50 yards with a shiny front head and polished blue buckhorn in sunlight. Even with a makeshift hood over the sights they had some glare.
The two groups at 2 1/4" are about as good as I can do at 50 yards with a shiny front head and polished blue buckhorn in sunlight. Even with a makeshift hood over the sights they had some glare.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Further data that SDs and ES have shockingly little to do with small groups.
I first found this when doing IPSC chronographing back in the early to middle 1980s.
I had started out using Unique for IPSC loads with 200 H&G 68 commercial cast. When I chronoed,
I was horrified to see 100 ot 125 fps extreme spreads on 10 shot strings! Yet, the groups were
very good. I tightened up the TC a good bit, and it helped, IIRC maybe 80-90 fps ES. Going up
to 230 RN comm cast improved it a lot, more like 50 ES or so. Clearly, Unique wasn't burning
really consistently with that light a bullet in .45 ACP.
But always the groups were good, no probs with accy. I switched to BE to get the ES way down,
since in IPSC it is common to pull rounds from you and call you to the test range and check
velocities to ensure reaching power factor. Major power factor was 180,000 minimum,
calculated with bullet weight in grains times average velocity for three shots of test ammo
in feet per second. Having a huge ES could nail you with only a three round test unless you
were running a pretty high average.
With low ES, you were able to run an average closer to the limit. Always looking for an edge
when matches could be won by a fraction of a second.
So, a 200 SWC at 900 fps was just making major 'back in the day'. Eventually Major Caliber was
lowered, I think today it is only 165,000. We loaded for about 925-950 average with powders
that had low ES, like BE and TG. .357 Mag loads could make major, too. A 158 at 1140 will make
it. Now a 200 SWC at 825 can make it. The 9mm and 40 cal boys whined until it was lowered.
Hard to make original Major with a .40 Short & Weak, essentially impossible with 9mm, although
a number of Browning HiPowers died in the attempts. I think it is still officially illegal to make Major
with a 9mm Para. So, the 9x21 and .38 Supers were born, could make the first reduction to 175,000
ressonably.
Today they are wimps.
But, one of the lessons was that accuracy and ES have little to do with each other. It does not seem
obvious but Mr. Target and Mr. Chrono have the REAL answers, all else is just theory.
Bill
I first found this when doing IPSC chronographing back in the early to middle 1980s.
I had started out using Unique for IPSC loads with 200 H&G 68 commercial cast. When I chronoed,
I was horrified to see 100 ot 125 fps extreme spreads on 10 shot strings! Yet, the groups were
very good. I tightened up the TC a good bit, and it helped, IIRC maybe 80-90 fps ES. Going up
to 230 RN comm cast improved it a lot, more like 50 ES or so. Clearly, Unique wasn't burning
really consistently with that light a bullet in .45 ACP.
But always the groups were good, no probs with accy. I switched to BE to get the ES way down,
since in IPSC it is common to pull rounds from you and call you to the test range and check
velocities to ensure reaching power factor. Major power factor was 180,000 minimum,
calculated with bullet weight in grains times average velocity for three shots of test ammo
in feet per second. Having a huge ES could nail you with only a three round test unless you
were running a pretty high average.
With low ES, you were able to run an average closer to the limit. Always looking for an edge
when matches could be won by a fraction of a second.
So, a 200 SWC at 900 fps was just making major 'back in the day'. Eventually Major Caliber was
lowered, I think today it is only 165,000. We loaded for about 925-950 average with powders
that had low ES, like BE and TG. .357 Mag loads could make major, too. A 158 at 1140 will make
it. Now a 200 SWC at 825 can make it. The 9mm and 40 cal boys whined until it was lowered.
Hard to make original Major with a .40 Short & Weak, essentially impossible with 9mm, although
a number of Browning HiPowers died in the attempts. I think it is still officially illegal to make Major
with a 9mm Para. So, the 9x21 and .38 Supers were born, could make the first reduction to 175,000
ressonably.
Today they are wimps.
But, one of the lessons was that accuracy and ES have little to do with each other. It does not seem
obvious but Mr. Target and Mr. Chrono have the REAL answers, all else is just theory.
Bill
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