Quandary over tooling up over PC or Traditional Cast Bullets?

[Canuck Bob]

I partially tooled up for traditional GG GC bullets. This included a used RCBS LAM II and a new toaster oven for heat treat control but no sizing dies, lube or GCs. The question before I finish tooling up and buying components is whether to move over to PC instead.

I am speaking of decent precision rifle capabilities mostly in levers, Handis, Lee Enfield as defined by scoped and iron sighted 2+ MOA rifles. The 1MOA jacketed precision will be the 223 CZ527 rifles. I decided not to pursue 22 caliber cast. My fingers don't allow it.

My pet peeve is not a nice peep sight 2.5 MOA group but nasty fliers. I have decided to use our forum on Tips, Tricks and Techniques as my long haul blueprint. Ric's book, Ian's series, and Ben's articles are an outstanding resource for internet mentoring a greenhorn to accomplished competitor, thanks gentlemen.

While waiting to get busy with casting Powder Coat took the casting world by storm. I've resolved toxicity concerns and like many of the features of PC bullets. However traditional cast size and lube methods really appeal to me too. The problem is there is a ton of testing of handgun PC but the ability to shoot accurately at rifle velocity is not as well documented.

What does this esteemed group say regarding these two choices? I can afford to chase one technique not both at this time.

 

[Canuck Bob]

PC bullet features considered:

Ability to possibly shoot 30 cal plain base bullets to 2500 fps accurately
The consistency to reach out to 300 yards regularly and 500 yards occasionally
Once produced all lead is encapsulated for clean safe residue free handling

Trad GG GC features considered:

Long proven industry and community history with limitless internet info
Rifle friendly
Known with some skill and education to accomplish 1800 to 2000 fps with 2500fps attainable
Production doesn't affect heat treat

 

[popper]

I shoot 308AR with 168gr GC PC, accurate @100, 2700 fps, Chroyd. I recently shot near MOA @ 200 (2400 fps from carbine, Chronyd). Hope that helps. Bama has gone faster & accrate but he is swaging his cast, I don't have the stuff to do that. friend commented last week he got his johnson grass out of the field so I could shoot up to 400, whenever he invites me. Don't know if my scope has enough adjustment for that.

 

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks that sure helps and better shooting than me. What base are your PC bullets popper, Gas Checked, non checked GC bullet, or flat base? Your report is very encouraging. My retirement wishlist rifle is a budget precision lefty 308 bolt, read Savage or Ruger, lol.

 

[fiver]

well.
you need all of the equipment to go the regular GG route you need to move into powder coat just more of it.
rifles with powder coat is still in it's infancy and the techniques although similar to GG are,, well,,,, different.
applying the coating, checking or altering the diameters properly is gonna be more equipment and more technical.
a slick sided or modified 'GG type' mold with the diameters adjusted to take another .002 in powder diameter are definitely a possibility for best results.
you might even be able to mimic a spire point bullet with a good alloy and powder coat it and not worry about nose riding at all.
it's just going to depend on your skills at measuring, ordering, and coating.

 

[Ian]

Well, you can coat about 10-20K bullets with a $15 bottle of PC. Or $40/K for gas checks.

I think either way will get you where you want to be, and I know either way will cost you some money in set-up. Once you're set up for PC (which can be done mostly with throw-away stuff like old nasty toaster ovens that still work, and plastic containers from the garbage), you can coat anything you want and not have to stock gas checks in different calibers. If you shoot pistols, you can coat that stuff for reduced lead exposure. If you plan to work mostly with one rifle, the appeal of PC may be less, since you only need to have a few tools and one size of checks.

 

[Bill]

I also would like to try pc, but I don't see any match winners using them, or top five for that matter, the ones that are getting close are using pc and gc together.

Bill

 

[popper]

I shoot a 142gr. PB in BO at 2100 fps with MOA @ 100. Haven't tried in 308 yet. PC of course. Basically a cut down version of the 165 from accurate.

 

[fiver]

when I'm about 86 I might get to a powder coat swage project I have on my list.

the issue right now is the bench shooters are all bump swaging their cast stuff to match their throats.
they are not going to get involved adding something they are not familiar with, and that might induce an off set on the surface of their crafted bullets.

 

[Reloader762]

I've been powder coating bullets for around 2 years now, I still use my RCBS Lubesizer on occasions as I like to compare traditional lube agents PC'ed bullet and see which shoots better especially in my rifles and I use whichever shoots best. I pick up a used original lube A Matic along with 10 sizing dies, 8 of which I could use from my purposes for $75 on eBay and RCBS was kind enough to replace a couple parts free of charge and I have enjoy using it quiet often.

I powder coat most all my pistol bullets these days gas check or not as I find it much easier for long term storage for component bullets out in my shop that I want to have ready to load, unlike traditional lube I don't have to be concerned with extreme heat or cold and the effects it has on the traditional lube over time if it's going to be awhile before I load them up. Personally I haven't notice that much of a difference between how accurately PC'ed bullet and ones that I TL with Alox / JPW or run through the Lubesizer shoot and the chrono number are close enough to just call it a wash.

I pretty new to powder coating rifle bullets although I have some coated up to test with identical loads I've shot in the past with Aloxed or traditional lubed bullets it will be a month or so before I can test those loads out. I have however tested out a load in my Mosin rifle using a Lee 170 gr. FN bullet I shoot in my 30-30. The bullet was to small for my Mosin bore by about .001" so I PC'ed it and sized it to .313" and it shot great right off the bat, I just wanted to see if it would shoot accurately and leave my bore nice an clean an it did. I have no plans to test that bullet any further as I have the proper dia. molds to use in those rifles but it's nice to know it worked in a pinch.

50 Yd. PC test target

As far as the powder coating of rifle bullets I have no idea how that is going to turn out in my rifles compared to traditional lube in a side by side comparison in velocity / accuracy, I'd rather be accurate than fast and let the bullet do the work for me. I'm going to prepare the best loads I can with the toosl I have an use which ever one works best. I also have a Ranch Dog clone of his original .311" 170 gr. grease groove bullet coming from Arsenal Molds in a week or so that will cast both gas check and plain base bullets. This will be my first pain base rifle bullet mold so it's going to be interesting to see how that bullet shoots in both configurations using traditional lube as well a powder coat.

As far as powder coating goes it's just another tool in the tool box, I treat it like a form of lube that has some beneficial uses that suit my particular needs. It's easy to do and my only expense was some plastic beads that cost about $3 and the cost of the powder. I already had a toaster over I used for heat treating bullets and I already had my LEE, NOE push through sizer's as well as my RCBS that I can size and gas check if needed with the lube turned off, I just recycle all the wife's 32 oz. #5 yogurt containers to tumble my bullets in.

If anyone uses gas checks I highly recommend http://www.sagesoutdoors.com/ he make his checks in house and also carries a full line of Gator Copper checks which I've used for years in 30 and 35 cal. I also tried his plain base check in my 9mm as well and they have worked great. A couple things to be aware of is that during the curing process if you water quench or heat treated your bullets prior, the curing process will anneal the bullets somewhat. It's close to 50% if you let them air cool and around 15% if you re quench them. If the bullets are cast from a known BHN alloy and air cooled originally the curing process want effect the final BHN at all.

 

[popper]

Last time I looked at CBA rules, coatings were not allowed. As far as PC messing up BR quality cast, there isn't enough weight to be a problem, dynamically. PC applied after a swage is done might alter 'fit' but only slightly,i.e. in a controlled manner. As to GCs I find only the Hornady are good enough for accuracy. They are dimensionally stable. I've used Josh's GCs (Cu) and they are good for plinking/hunting/etc. I am NOT against the other makers but my targets show the difference. The base edge MUST be accurate when it leaves the crown - constant equal pressure on the base in the barrel, so that perfect base can only effect flight on exit.
I am not a competitive shooter, not nearly as good a shot as most of you guys. My personality is to push the envelope so to speak.

 

[Canuck Bob]

As usual this group continues to amaze. In first look both methods will do what I want better than my current marksmanship abilities. I think traditional GC cast bullets will be easier for an aspiring greenhorn. I need to tool up for .311, .314, and .323 in one rifle per size. I'm now researching what it would entail to tool up for both. I've got single cavity GC molds for the 32 Special and 303 and enough 30-30 ammo for the season.

It turns out from above that I over estimated the cost of PC. It seems if I setup for traditional using the RCBS sizer as originally planned all that PC would require is Lee PT sizers and a pound of Eastwood powder to go with my no-food toaster shop oven. In a pinch I could use the sizing press it seems.

At 5 cents per bullet GCs are not too crazy at my volumes. Compared to .40 or .50 per j bullet or $2 per round for decent factory cartridges GCs make sense. I'm under no illusion reloading is gonna save any money but it will allow shooting at my expected volumes and be a ton of fun.

 

[Canuck Bob]

One more hairbrained question! Can plated bullets be PCed to enlarge them a couple thou and withstand a little velocity? I'm thinking of my Berry's .311 125 gn plated AK bullets for my Lee Enfield.

 

[35 shooter]

No flyers for me and First shot accuracy with Ben's Red or BLL tumble lube.
2500 fps. You mentioned easily obtainable with proper powder choice and gas checks.
For a small investment you can make your own checks for next to nothing.

This is not the only way, but it's a trouble free way along with good bullet selection and fit.

 

[Ian]

Consider that BLL is made from Unicorn tears and sintered Pixie dust, or may as well be, since Johnson's discontinued the One Step wax that made it so good.

 

[35 shooter]

AAHHHH, but some of us stocked up lol. Seriously though, i want to try the lundmark wax at higher vel. to see if it works as a replacement....it sure would be nice.
There's still a bit of the Johnson's out there on the back shelves of mom and pop stores, but yeah, it's about gone.

Ben's Red works just as well with the same loads i use the BLL with though.
I'll try the lundmark with some known high vel. loads sometime this spring or summer.

 

[Canuck Bob]

To be clear I won't be making checks, lubes and such. I will use Randy Rat's Tac for the lubrasizer, some form of beeswax and furniture wax and Ballistol for tumbling, and Hornady checks. Life is too short to be a backyard chemist. I admire folks like Ben and others here who invent this stuff and make checks and such but I've just no desire to do it myself. Lead, antimony, tin, PC powder and Hoppe's #9 is all the toxic I want to handle. Due to cancer this is serious business for me. Using my lathe to make some tools is as inventive as I want to be.

 

[Bret4207]

I know absolutely nothing about powder coating and really have no interest in it. I do know I can produced decent accuracy at sppeds that satify me with traditional techniques, designs, lubes, etc. Unless there is some burning reason to switch to what appears to be plastic coated bullets, I'd give the traditional method a try.

What goes "GG" stand for, as in "GG GC"?

 

[Brad]

Grease groove?
As opposed to slab sided bullet thst some use for powder coated bullets. With no lube they feel no need for grooves that may only complicate the casting preoceas.

 

[fiver]

I have been so super slowly working on the PC coating for copper bullets thing.
I think it can be done.
but the surface needs some preparation first.
washing them in laundry detergent like tide or woolite will clean them of gunk and even wax lubes like lanolin.
then a rinse in acetone to remove any finger prints and hand oils.
[the cleaning part is as far as I have got]

I know Hi-Tek will stick and cook on, and multiple layers can be applied, to jacketed bullets if you clean them like above.
I just haven't tried applying PC yet.