Red Dot

[Mitty38]

Ok, hope I do not bore you with this powder of choice for discussion, as it has probably long been played out long before I came along.
I know I can, and have developed at least one load for the following calibers, 30-06, 38 special, 45acp, 9mm, 410.
So what can't it be used for? Where is the case size window if any? Will the pressure peak cause any major issues in a particular rifle using it in a light to medium load?
Pretty sure one of them is .223.

 

[RicinYakima]

"...case size window" is a myth. The issue is keeping it to the rear in long cases, like 300 H&H magnum. It is easy to ignite, if the primer flame can reach it. Because it has little or no deterrent coating, the main issue is that Hercules/Alliant never tested it over 20,000 CUP, shotgun pressures. Once you get over that range, very small amounts create large pressure rises. You are outside the "box" (tested data) and on your own. Doesn't mean it will not work, just not "recommended".

 

[fiver]

red-dot and the 223 is like a match made really good if you got a bolt gun, or plan on pulling the handle every time.
a couple of flakes and high speeds without really high pressure, easy peasy.

 

[Mitty38]

Now I am going to have to try it in. 223 with cast powder coated bullet. Time to buy a. 223 bolt action?
Have not tried it on. 380 either, figure the pressure might be too much for the Bersa if I were expect it to cycle.If it were even able to fit enough powder.
My results with Red Dot and 9 surprised me, but the old Maverick C9 ( Hi points pre High Point pistol) will eat and cycle on almost anything.
Do not know if I would run that load in a glock though. Probably would blow out the chamber. Lol

So Ricin, longer cases could still be worked up with Red Dot, if a person were to tip before the shoot, or enter the world of fillers? Now I understand that fillers aren't to be used in non shot loads with faster powders like Red Dot. So how would one get it to function in a long cartridge with out fillers, except for tipping every time you shoot? Interesting stuff to consider.

 

[RicinYakima]

First, I am a fan of the 32/20 revolver. The case is longer than the .357 Magnum, as is the OAL. During Chrony sessions, I found that powder position was important with Red Dot. For field use, I just point the revolver down, cock it and raise and fire. I have also used it in the 358 Norma Magnum for a plinking load. I walk through the sage brush with the rifle a port arms, or the rifle pointed up laid against the right shoulder, so the powder stays back against the primer.

For bench use, not wanting to tip the rifle up out of the rest, you can open the bolt, hold the head of the case down and gently tap on the action. Then slowly lower the case to horizonal and push it into the chamber. Close the bolt and fire. I do this when match shooting with all my bolt guns without regard to the load in the case.

I don't use any Red Dot now only because I have used up all I had. I use Bullseye now because I have about 10 pounds of it and it will last the rest of my life.

 

[fiver]

I do the same thing with 2400 in the 0-6 cases, there is enough of an accuracy edge by doing so it's worth the little bit of effort.

think about it like this.
in all the magazines we used to read back in the day the loading guru's of the time always preached using powders that filled the cases over 85-90%.
they found their best accuracy when doing so for the same reason.

 

[JonB]

Shortly after I started casting, I bought a complete shotshell setup and accessories from a Widow, just to get the Lead shot. The lot also can with 3 large cans of Red Dot, one 15lb (half full) and two sealed 5 lb cans (I think they were 5 lbs?). So I have loaded Red dot in all of the many handgun cartridges I load. I also tried it in 22 Hornet for a 22LR type load...That wasn't repeated, because it's challenging measuring 1.2 gr of Red Dot...I switched to Bullseye.
> I've read about the Ed Harris 13 gr rifle load, but I never tried it.

 

[CZ93X62]

No experience with Red Dot in centerfire rifles, but LOTS of RD has been burned in my shotshells and handgun rounds.

Some of you may have an old Hercules "Reloader's Guide" that used to get handed out at reloading specialty stores back in the day. I have one such copy next to my computer from 1991, and it has a double-truck chart across pp. 40-41 listing loads for their shotshell powders in most common handgun calibers. Looking at Red Dot in this chart, the only calibers it does not show loads for are 10mm Auto and 45 Win Mag. It is a bit intriguing that Bullseye is listed as appropriate in 10mm, but not Red Dot. Perhaps this is in keeping with Ric In Yakima's statement concerning extent of pressure testing with Red Dot, or the squirrelly results from same. I suspect the latter, but have no proof to offer or independent info on the matter.

This chart arrays the powders left-to-right from Bullseye to 2400, in what I presume to be fastest-to-slowest burn rate. It gives pressure results in PSI rather than the older LUP/CUP, in keeping with the SAAMI pressure-testing regimen upgrade from c. 1990. What is most interesting to me in the context of this thread is that pretty consistently Red Dot's pressure yield in a given cartridge is obtained by using between 3% to 10% LESS POWDER than with Bullseye. One could conclude that Red Dot might be a little faster than Bullseye, and it has always been curious to me that Bullseye doesn't get listed for any shotshell applications that I have ever run across.

 

[RicinYakima]

The answer is in the chemical composition of Bullseye, it is different than the Dot powders, Unique and Herco. Bullseye has almost three times as much nitroglycerine as the others. The pressure curve of Bullseye is almost straight up once it reaches a certain point. Red Dot has more "strength" than Bullseye and do more work with less weight because of its composition.

 

[Ian]

Hmm. When modeling Bullseye vs. Red Dot with Quickload software I see more than that and consider BE to be, for all intents and purposes, much "slower" than RD.....at least in straight-wall metallic cartridges. The reason for this is rate of pressure decay. 3.0 grains of Bullseye is still burning as it goes out the muzzle of a 4" .38 revolver while Red Dot is done in a couple of inches. As a result, you see more velocity at the same pressure when using BE as opposed to RD. They both spike to peak pressure quickly, but BE gives a lot more, and longer, push and thus more effective gas volume and longer burn curve.

Similar slow decay can be seen when comparing Unique to Universal. Similar pressure rise, much slower decay and higher velocity with Unique for same peak pressure loading.

This is only a model, but having compared many pistol/shotgun powders in the real world, the modeled trend seems to hold true.

 

[Bill]

The primer flash will blow through any case length, and all the flake powders light right up with no fillers, I once read that it was due to the "leaf blower effect" and no coatings I guess that's where the consistency comes from, I do know that it works well in my 30-30 and 30-06

Bill

 

[fiver]

Ian and Ric both make valid points.
I avoided bulls-eye for a long time because of my impression of it being the fastest [or right nearly so anyway] powder available.
but then... LOL.
I really started looking over it's data in many different applications and at it's actual pressures in those applications. [remember when you didn't get pressures in data books?]
I started noting the large load windows that were truly presented even with it's higher nitro content, and I started looking at other powders considered slower in burn speed, and I remembered how they measure burn speeds.
that last bit is the clue to really look at a powder and it's capabilities rather than where it falls on a burn chart.

Allen there has been data for bulls-eye in shotshells.
it runs about 1/2gr. lower than red for the same-same, but actual tested data is in short [non existent]supply since about the early 90's.
there's some S.S. data for titegroup out there too, but it's even more limited, [and strangely close to bulls-eye] the few loads available work pretty good though.

 

[Ian]

Titegroup is another "fast" powder with a fast spike and slow decay, it is actually quite similar to Bullseye (and listed slower, they should be closer IMO in the burn rate charts, but it changes its whole attitude when confined which may be why it isn't listed for many shotshell loads.. Clays burns about like we would think BE should, very fast up but almost immediately falls off, like Red Dot.

 

[fiver]

and that's part of why it does work so well in shot shell data.
there is a cushion there for the expansion and the sinewave of the powders pressure front is moved away from the powder.
as well as the fact that you really do want to walk the pressure line with your shot shell loads, the efficiency and consistency of the load goes up exponentially when you get the powder worked up like that.

 

[Joshua]

Bear with me on this one guys, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride.

So, I’ve got no experience with Red Dot.

But, I did want to buy one of these shotgun/pistol/reduced rifle powders in bulk.

And, I wasn’t gonna buy Red Dot, Bullseye or Unique at full price. Also, it seemed “All” the old timers used these powders not because they were better but because that’s what their dad used. Yes, that was poor, and judgemental thinking on my part.

So, I bought a bunch of Herco, cause it was cheap, and because “slow” Unique sounded safe.

Now, I’m seeing a bunch of new pressure testing related to Herco and 38 special that is showing a secondary pressure spike that is equal to, or possibly greater than the initial pressure wave. Dangerous stuff.

So, basically I would have been better off buying any of the first three powders listed. Lesson learned. I guess that, Bullseye does in fact always work.

Josh

 

[Ian]

Meh, burn up your Herco under 230s in your .45 ACP. Ees da dirty, ya, boot eet verks goot!

 

[RicinYakima]

Remember that Herco was designed when the 16 gauge was THE field gun and its one ounce was a heavy load. It is a good, but not great, 357 powder.

 

[fiver]

it's also real loud in the 357 revolvers, it's a mouse in the lever rifles though.

what happens is your creating a big poof of powder [think flour dust floating around] moving around in the smaller cases when the primer goes off and it bounces back and forth 1-2 times before the bullet is gone, use a bigger case and the issue goes away.
like Ian mentioned the 45 acp is good, as is the 44mag. and 45 colt, I use it in the 357 quite a bit.

 

[CZ93X62]

Maybe all of the nitro-glycerine content is why Bullseye sticks to the sides of my powder measure hoppers and etches them into cloudy translucence. First World Problem, I know--but the trait annoys me and that is why I favor WW-231 in that powder niche.

I use a lot of Herco, mostly for heavy-field shotshells (12 gauge 1-1/4 oz) and mid-range magnum revolver loads (900-1050 FPS/cast SWCs). It is also doing decent work as my replacement for SR-4756 in the 32/20 revolver loads.

 

[Joshua]

I’m sure that I will be able to use up the eleven and a half pounds of Herco that I have left. As has been stated it will run just fine in the 45acp, 30-30, 7.7x58mm, 30-06, and if I can ever find some shotgun primers I will run it in the 12gauge.

I liked how the 38 special 5gr Herco over a 358477 shot. But I have other powders that use proper published reloading manual loads.

I’m thinking I will also step back from the 40s&w loads that I have developed. They function fine and primers look good. It isn’t a compressed load but it does get a little tight. Ken Waters liked Herco in the 40s&w, but that was a long time ago, more has been revealed.

Josh

P.s. Mitty, hope you’re feeling better and sorry for drifting your Red Dot shotgun powder thread!!!