S&w 625

Bass Ackward

Active Member
Plain to the eye. But hard to get the iPad to pick it up. Best I can do.

As far as shooting goes, I prefer the cut rifling.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
OK, I can see the angled sides on the rifling where it ends at the muzzle chamfer, and that looks
like EDM rifling to me. But, nowdays there are multiple other methods, too. Hammer forging,
for example, and button rifling. I THINK hammer forging tends to have the more rounded or
angled edges on the lands, too. Who knows where S&W may buy their barrel blanks. Probably
multiple vendors, and probably changes from year to year.

Mine is pretty clearly cut rifling. My pictures were just intended to show the angle of the front sight
when the barrel shoulder was hand tight against the frame, not really focus on the rifling, so it is
not clear. The last pic you sent shows quite a bit wider lands, too, than mine.

No strong convictions on rifling types. Brian Pierce, whose opinions I value, seems to prefer
cut rifling, although he do not remember him condemning EDM type. I think he says he gets better
performance with cast from cut rifling and leaves it at that. IIRC.

Anyone reading this should understand that I like S&W revolvers, have many and will almost
certainly buy more in the future. I am a bit dismayed at the number of them that I have gotten
with thread choke, something that is entirely predictable and preventable.

Bill
 
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Bass Ackward

Active Member
I understand, we have been in the gunsmithing business since 67. My point was the other EDM gun doesn’t have a conventional rifling on top. It’s flat, just like my 627 & 629. It requires a slightly harder slug to produce the same accuracy. Where it does have an advantage is cleaning.

I only asked all this cause all 3 of my guns were purchased within a year of each other & the custom shop model was the only one with the cut. For my own education, I was interested if / why S&W chose to move away from the EDM style for all. It’s either performance or cost. They should have never left it. At that time they were already fighting the “lock” fiasco. Reputation really took a hit.

I think you are gonna find your gun will now do those groups with virtually anything you choose to shoot & anything (within reason) you choose to propel it with, to what ever power level you want to achieve. (Adjusting powder speed of coarse.) I even get those kids groups with the Lee 200 gr flying brick & the 230 TC. ( not normally thought of as .... competition quality slugs.)

Good luck with gun & enjoy it when something else has ya down. :)
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I'd love to see a really clear, sharp closeup of that rifling. If you have a friend with
a good camera that will do macro focus, send me a good pic of that "on top" rifling,
it sounds interesting, always like to learn about new tech in gun stuff.

I suspect that the cost of the two piece barrels wasn't meeting expectations. One issue that they
may have expected was enhanced accuracy from a tensioned barrel, a-la Dan Wesson
revolvers. I have heard claims that this was DW's secret sauce for their 'known to be accurate'
handguns. Never owned one or handled one for more than a minute, never shot one, so I
have no idea first hand....just what "every body knows" which sometimes is dead right and
a lot of times is pure snake oil, smoke and mirrors, too. No real opinion, although the engineering
shows that a tensioned bar has a far higher bending stiffness (guitar string, for example) than an
untensioned bar of the same diameter. So, it will make the barrel stiffer than it would be otherwise,
but the question is, "Is inadequate stiffness in bending the primary problem preventing this barrel
from shooting better groups?" I suspect that there might be something to it for longer barrels but
I doubt it is beyond background noise for barrels from 6" down in length, already quite stiff, since
stiffness is an inverse cube function of length. So a 6" barrel will have 30% of the stiffness in bending
as a 4" bbl, maybe better to say a 4" bbl is over 3 times as stiff as a 6" bbl, but an 16" barrel will 5% as
stiff (1/20th as stiff) as a 6" barrel of identical dimensions. So sweating bending stiffness on pistol barrels
seems unlikely to get you very much. Perhaps tensioning a rifle barrel will get you a light contour barrel
acting like a bull barrel, at least in bending....but what will the sleeve weigh and cost, and how do you get
the heat out of that light contour barrel inside a sleeve?

I always like to go back to first principles and take a quick look to see if there is likely much to a particlar
hypothesis for accuracy improvement. Certainly proves nothing, but IMO saves wasting a lot of time on
blind alleys that you can show are 98% likely to be a blind alley without traveling down them.

Bill
 
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oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Not meaning to rain on your parade, buy it, but do not be surprised if the barrel has significant
choke, many do. Bill

Nope! Seals the deal. I hate buying most new guns... And, I keep seeing mixed reviews on the new 625s. It would be a lark for me, and all I would REALLY do is the occasional bowling pin match at the local range. AND, would be just plain ticked if I had to put gunsmith $ into it! I think (and thank you!) that you pushed me over the edge, and will use my $500 gift cert for some 'things' I want to upgrade, like a scope and red dot (which, a FREE one helped me win the GC in the first place!).
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Didn't intend to talk your out of your gun. Just talking about improving mine.
Yours might be dead nuts perfect like my 586+, but no guarantees.

Bill
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Bill - you didn't talk me out of it. I just keep hearing so many mixed reviews and experiences. And too much money to spend on a new gun that might have problems... Reminds me of the Remlin issues. Why I don't even pick one up. I go older. My real dilema is that my options are somewhat limited based on the gift cert I have and what they have available...
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I guess you could get the Jerry Mickulik (SP) . It would probably have the bugs corrected or not included in the first place .
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
This one IS a JM model 625 from the Custom Shop.

I traded off the JM wood grips, after shooting them one session and finding
that I didn't like them even close to my standard for S&Ws, the Hogue Rubber
grips. The JMs mount like a Hogue, probably made by them.

Bill
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
I should have remembered that .....

I looked at one a year or so ago all that attention to detail and slickery and then the most important parts are just crancked down to some torque window index ........ What a sham . Especially on a $1200 pistol . Msrp of course .
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I got this one, with original factory case, demooner, moon clips, paperwork and extra Hogue
grips for well under $800.

Bill
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
OK it warmed up to over 50F today, and I went out to where I have my backstop set up (steel)
and did some load testing in the JM 625.
I had some really good groups, although sometimes, I think the jerk behind the trigger was
getting in the way. :embarrassed:

S&W625 Horn200 CT 4.8TG 25 yds.jpg

It seems to like 452460, which does well in my 1911s, too. Four in the left hole. The bottom one was the
sixth shot.....of course. :headbang:

S&W625 452460 4.8TG Rem brass.jpg

Looking for a social work load, tried some WW 230 JRNs that I have found to expand
very reliably for me. All loads were with 4.8 TG, a pretty normal full power load, but not max
at all, at least with the 200 gr bullets. Will need to see where the top is with the 230s, but I
am sure it is higher.
S&W625 WW230JRN 4.8TG 25 yds.jpg

I like it when the bad groups run out to 1.5-2". :)

452460 is just aching to go into one hole if the jerk behind the trigger and the
casting and loading dude will get their acts together. I think I have the bbl sorted
out now.

Good day in the back yard.

Bill
 
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Dogdoc

New Member
Just for info, a 1/8 turn crush fit is the correct torque for a smith and Wesson revolver or about what you call a 45 degree hand tight. Reference Sweeney’s book and kuhnhausen manual for details of needed. You may have it a bit too loose but that locktite will work.
 
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Dogdoc

New Member
Well, I have an older one.....same old.

Here is a pic for the Thunder Ranch Model 21 with 0.004" thread choke.

View attachment 8187

Aluminum spud turned to groove diam, tapped into the muzzle. The first time you use it, the
threads broach the aluminum, hurts nothing. The threads will drive the barrel. The other end
is on a live center.

Bill
I too have a lathe find that set up interesting. How much run out with tapping the aluminum into the barrel? I was going to turn a center in my 4 jaw chuck and mount a live center in my tail stock then drive it with some sort of dog? What do you think?
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Just for info, a 1/8 turn crush fit is the correct torque for a smith and Wesson revolver or about what you call a 45 degree hand tight. Reference Sweeney’s book and kuhnhausen manual for details of needed. You may have it a bit too loose but that locktite will work.
IMHO, Sweeney is wrong. That will only work if you chase the threads on the barrel deeper and clean up the ones in the frame. I'm with Bill.
 
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Pistolero

Well-Known Member
1/8 th turn gets you .0025-0.004 thread restriction and poor accuracy. I don't call that
'about right', sorry. IME, about 2-5 degrees is actually right, and you need a pin, like
the old days, or loctite to hold it. I am pretty sure that the old original pin in the
barrel was because they couldn't tighten it enough to stay put without causing thread
choke. So they pinned it, loctite not being invented yet. Later, "smarter guys" know
that 1/8th turn is "about right" and no pin is needed --- and they are full of beans,
factory paycheck or not. There was a period where a precut groove was in the barrel
and it would only contact after maybe 5-10 deg rotation. Apparently in the older days
they actually drilled in the pin after the barrel was fitted properly. My very old S&Ws have
no thread choke, pinned bbls. Middle-aged ones have pins and thread choke, but a milled
groove in the bbl shank when you get them apart.

Thanks, freebullet, I am happy with the way it is shooting now.

S&W625 4.8TG200SWC68 15 yds standing.jpg

No runout with a groove diam aluminum or brass pin tapped in the muzzle and a dog
is likely to mar the barrel and entirely unnecessary. Do what you want, I showed you what
has worked for years on a lot of guns. You are taking off 0.001 at a time, very little torque.
Live center on the forcing cone area. The rifling broaches grooves into the aluminum, handles
the low cutting torque fine, the pin aligns precisely on the groove diam.

Bill
 
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Dogdoc

New Member
I may have to try your technique. In the past,I turned down a brass rod to land diameter in a 4 jaw chuck and used a live center in the forcing cone mounted in tail stock. I drove it with a brass rod attached to rod going into chuck. The brass rod rested against the barrel. I do not recall much run out but your method may be better. I set back several 1970s vintage pin barrels(model 27s) and they had about 1/8 or so crush fit from the factory even with pins(before I set them back). I agree with you it is probably overkill. Like you, I like tinkering with the minutia to get the performance I like. I think I will take my pin gages on those 27s and see if they have thread choke. Good stuff

Dogdoc
 

Dogdoc

New Member
One thing of interest to add about smith barrels. I have several revolvers I purchased 10 to 15 years ago that have the distinct classic rounded ecm rifling look. I purchased 2 model 69s and a new model 57 last year that have rifling that looks like classic cut rifling although I realize it likely is not. Last year a customer service rep at Smith told me they changed there process but I have found sometimes the reps do not know what they are talking about.(cynical I know).
So far, no extreme leading with the new guns. Anybody else notice cut like rifling on any recent manufactured Smith revolvers?
 

Arlon

Member
I bought a very lightly used 625 JM a year or so ago. A friend of mine has an earlier 5" model that is a tack driver so when I saw the 625 JM I had to try it. Well, mine is a lemon. I think some are great and some aren't. There seems to be a lot of inconsistency in them. Mine shot 6-8" groups off a rest at 25 yds with a dozen different factory ACP loads, my cast reloads and some reloads in AR cases. All shot patterns. I sent some emails to S&W with pictures of targets from several factory loads. They asked me to send it in. I did, it came back shooting slightly better (recut crown and forcing cone), average groups in the 4" range at 25 yards. I gave it to my friend to shoot who is a VERY good pistol shooter. He shot it beside his 1989 5" and it was apparent that my JM still has issues. I pin gauged the cylinder bores, found one tight and carefully opened it up. That helped a lot and got rid of the consistent flier that was always out of the group. I've managed to get a few groups in 2-4 inch range now but it is still nothing like the 1989.

It a shame I can't get this to shoot any better than it does. I have WWI model 1917s that out shoots the JM. I think if you get a good one you are in for a good time, if you get a bad one just get rid of it and avoid the frustration. Mine shoots a lot better than it did but it's still going to be trade fodder at the next gun show with full disclosure.