SIG - The innovators

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
The initials S I G stand for Schweizerische Industrie-Gesellschaft; German for “Swiss Industrial Society [Company]”. The company that most Americans simply call “SIG” has gone through many name changes and re-organizations. These include associations with J.P. Sauer, a few U.S. importers and manufacturers and some other re-organizations in the U.S.A. & Europe. We’ll just call them SIG here.

Shortly after WWII the Swiss adopted the Model 49, also known as the model P210 in civilian trim. This is an outstanding pistol of incredible quality. That pistol was also used by Denmark and a few other governmental agencies in Germany. While the P210 is a great pistol, it is rather expensive to build. By the 1970’s the Swiss were looking for a modern replacement. In 1975 the P220 was born out of this effort. That pistol known as the P220 in civilian modes and the P75 in the Swiss military, represented a huge leap forward in pistol design.

The folded metal slide wasn’t an original idea, the Walther Volkspistole, a last-ditch weapon designed late in WWII used a folded sheet metal slide. There were other prior examples as well. The material used in the P220 slide was too thick to be called sheet metal, but it was formed by a folding/pressing type operation. The solid nose cap was added to the front of the slide and a solid breach block was fitted and pinned in the rear of the slide. At the time, the resulting slide was cheaper and faster to produce than an all-milled forging. For largely economic reasons SIG would later move back to a more traditional manufacturing method for the slide but the folded slide was strong, fast to produce and durable.

Another BIG innovation was using a squared off ejection port to lock the barrel and slide together. This method to accomplish barrel/slide locking in a Browning tilting barrel design is now used by a multitude of makers that employ the Browning tilting barrel system. Prior to the SIG P220, most users of the Browning system had lugs on the barrel and matching recesses cut inside the side. While that certainly works, it is far more costly and complicated to manufacture and requires more material in the upper slide. Pick up a locked breach type pistol today and the chances are very good it will have a slide to barrel locking system similar to the SIG P220 from 1975.

The frame of the P220 was made of an aluminum alloy. This wasn’t groundbreaking at the time, but it was executed with a Swiss like twist. Like the earlier Model P210 / Model 49, the slide rails ran the full length of the frame with only one cut for the slide catch/ejector. This results in excellent slide to frame fit. Even old, well used SIG pistols will have outstanding slide to frame fit after tens of thousands of rounds. The aluminum frame has a hardened steel locking block (pinned in place by the trigger pin and takedown lever). That locking block provides a hardened surface for the barrel to cam against during locking and unlocking. Technically that locking block is replaceable but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one wear out.

The P220 utilized a de-cocking lever to render the pistol safe when there was a round in the chamber. The DA/SA action allowed the user to fire the pistol by simply pulling the trigger. If the slide was closed and there was a live round in the chamber, the gun would fire if the user pulled the trigger. There was virtually no way to put a loaded pistol into a mode in which it would not fire when needed. And there is a passive firing pin block that prevents the gun from firing if the trigger is not fully depressed.

SIG was extremely innovative in 1975 but they didn’t completely abandon old school tech. The gun was still a hammer fired design. The locking system was still basically a Browning tilting barrel system. The P220 (P75) and later P225 (P6) utilized single stack magazines. These were service pistols that were modern but retained their rock-solid roots.

Yeah, SIG’s of that era were a bit “blocky” before that was really the norm in service pistols. And yes, the finish was never going to win a beauty contest (but it holds up well to abuse). And you could pay a lot of money to get nice checkered wooden grips but for the most part, these guns wear plastic panels.

These guns are work horses; not show horses. They WORK!

That original P75 design was adopted by the Swiss military. It became the basis for an entire line of great pistols such as the P225 (P6), the P226 (the double stack, full size high-capacity service pistol), The P228 (the compact, high-capacity version of the P226). And there were other spin offs.

SIG returned to conventional milled slides for later models such as the 229 and 239 but retained the squared off ejection port barrel/slide locking method. The cost savings with modern automated machining were just no longer there. Eventually SIG entered the realm of polymer frames and striker fired actions.

There was a time, not that long ago, when local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies relied heavily on those P220’s and their derivatives. Civilian sales of SIG pistols have always been strong, and the brand enjoys amazing and well-deserved loyalty.

And to this day, there are a lot of old SIG P75 pistols, with heel magazine releases and single stack mags….. winning pistol matches.
 

Rick H

Well-Known Member
I carried a Sig P220 in 45acp from '85-92. My department withdrew permission to carry the 1911 on duty when one of our guys shot himself in the ass holstering his Commander that he insisted on carrying on half cock. The department frowned on the single action autopistol after that. I carried the Sig P220 until a department mandatory switch to 40 S&W Glocks (at their expense).
The P220 was a solid gun, but I was never able to shoot it as well as my 1911.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
The SIG's saw a lot of use in Virginia. The various federal LE agencies liked them before they switched to Glocks. The Virginia state police went with SIG after their short term with the S&W 1026 autos.
VSP used the P228 (in 9mm) , P229 (DAO in 357 SIG) and now the new P320 series.
One of our larger local Police Departments, Henrico Co. used the P220 in 45ACP for many years before going with Glock.
SIGs were seen everywhere.
 
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Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I wo uld tend to agree that carrying a 1911 on half cock is probably a flawed technique. If you are in a position where you need to be able to draw and fire, cocked and locked is the way to go. But you better be good and your holster better be right because it is pretty easy to sweep the safety off making the gun a bit of a risk. When we shot in competition, cocked and locked is how we always started. But our holsters were race holsters and holsters more in name than in function.

I like a double action auto. It's about as safe a carry as you can have. I have Walther PPK/S that was my Dad's. I'd carry that with no reserver. I just prefer my Mod 60. Something about double action wheelguns that makes me shoot better. But all my experience is in competition, not with someone shooting back at me. Who knows what one would do when the target shoots back.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Deep down in the dark corners of my psyche, I am a DA revolver guy. In fact, a DAO revolver guy. That’s fairly old school but I’m OK with that.

I have trained with and carried several platforms including: the DA revolver, the DA/SA semi-auto pistol, the sort of DA action striker fired Glocks and the Cocked & Locked Single Action Autos like the 1911. For a long time, (about 70 years, give or take a little) the 1911 was close to the pinnacle of the self-defense handgun options. It is still an excellent choice, but I am no longer convinced it represents the pinnacle of the available options. THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS A BAD OPTION (so put away the tar and feathers, that is not blasphemy) I said AVAILABLE options not the BEST option.

By the mid 1980’s the options were expanding. We had DA/SA pistols with decent capacity that were chambered in useful calibers (including 45 ACP) and were very reliable. We had new operating systems and materials, like the Glocks. We had highly refined, medium framed DA revolvers like the S&W L-frames and Ruger GP-100’s. We had small, locked breach pistols chambered in useful cartridges, like the Kahr’s and the sub-compact Glocks. Prior to the mid 1970’s, there just were not that many options. By the mid 1980’s the landscape had changed dramatically.

When you say SIG P220, most Americans think of a P220 chambered in 45 ACP. The reality is the original Swiss P220 / P75 was a single stack pistol with a heel magazine release and chambered in 9mm Luger. That gun went on to become the basis for an entire line of SIG pistols. It also represented a significant step away from the dogmatic old school thinking and a turn towards new ideas. The single action auto carried “Cocked & Locked” was the “Flat Head Ford V-8” of its day. It was the pinnacle in its day, but it was superseded by overhead valve engines, overhead cam engines, electronic fuel injected engines, etc. ………. It was still good, but it was no longer cutting edge.

Now put away the tar and feathers, I didn't say anything bad about John Browning's pistol.
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
That 'Flathead V-8 to Cocked & Locked 1911A1/BHP' analogy is CLASSIC.

Nothing is as constant as change. The TDA self-loaders supplanted the D/A wheelguns about 8-10 years after I started in the police trade. 8-10 more years went by, and we authorized the striker-fired Glocks along with the hammer-fired makes/models.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
There are points in the history of firearms where you can see change occurring. Of course, in hindsight, they are clear.

The big changes in history are easy to spot. The introduction of the swing out cylinder on DA revolvers, the tilting barrel system from Browning or the introduction of the magnum cartridges in .357 and .44. These turning points of history are clear.

But there are many more subtle points along the way. The first mass production of an all stainless-steel revolver (S&W Model 60) or the first use of a plastic frame (the H&K VP70).

The SIG P75 (known as the P220 outside of the Swiss military) was one of those subtle way points in history. It was the first in a new line of extremely successful SIG pistols. While SIG has moved on, those early P220, 225, 226 and 228 pistols remain as an important part of history.
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Those are 4 excellent pistols. We have 3 of them here at home (220, 226, and 228).

The 40 S&W caliber has caused its share of issues for gunmakers. In the Glock system, the brass got 'blevied' via unsupported case heads in the Gen 2 40s. With the SIG-Sauer pistols, the roll-pinned bolt assemblies could not withstand extended exposure to the increased backthrust of the 40 S&W cartridges, so the 226 was given the milled bolt integral with the slide, and the 228 was re-named the 229 and given similar mods to its slide. The Beretta 96 ran very well for me, but the factory flatly stated that aftermarket barrels in 357 SIG were verboten and use of same would void factory warrantees. FWIW.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
A lot of manufacturers tried to make a 40 S&W pistol out of 9mm pistol with minimal engineering changes and learned the hard way that wasn’t a viable approach. I think one of the more glaring examples of that was with the Kahr PM40. The all steel MK9 in 9mm was a reliable pistol and when they came out with the polymer framed PM9 it still worked. But when they crammed a 40 S&W cartridge into the small polymer PM40, they had all sorts of problems. They seemed to have worked those bugs out but the early PM40 Kahrs were a “bridge too far”. The manufacturers have caught up with reality and know how to make a pistol in 40 S&W. But in the early days of that cartridge, they all had some teething problems.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
When the local guys were allowed to start using the 40 S&W, the ones that bought the .45 framed pistols were happy with the increased round count and less recoil than the .45. Those that got the light weight plastic 9MM frames were not as happy and most went back to their 9's.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
To me, the easiest-shooting 40 S&Ws I have fired have been the all-steel CZ-75B, and the big ol' Beretta 96.

That CZ is a CHUNK, and it soaks up recoil very well. The ergonomics of the 92/96 get along real well with my hands, I suppose--I can point and hit well at 15-20 yards readily.
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
First 40 SW we bought was a P9 (CZ75) that was one of three the ISP tried out. Our's was the "Captains" and looked like it was never shot. We fixed that condition as quickly as it took to get dies brass ad a 200 grain mold. Still my favorite 40.
But a Glock gets more hauled about due to the Kel-Tec 2000 carbine that uses Glock mags.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
To me, the easiest-shooting 40 S&Ws I have fired have been the all-steel CZ-75B, and the big ol' Beretta 96.

That CZ is a CHUNK, and it soaks up recoil very well. The ergonomics of the 92/96 get along real well with my hands, I suppose--I can point and hit well at 15-20 yards readily.
I would say the CZ 75 and Beretta 92/96 grips have similar profiles.
In fact, I would say both of those pistols are similar in the hand to the Browning Hi-Power grip.
 

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
My old lady is carrying a p365 compact. I really like it. But it weighs about the same as my g19. And the SIG is smaller with less ammo. But the 5.8oz lighter sig just feels heavier when carrying it.
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I'm sorry to say that I have no experience with the SIG P-320 or P-365. Our overlords in Sacramento have deemed these pistols unsuitable for the proletariat to purchase. Expletives deleted.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I have not shot the SIG P320. The Virginia State Police selected the P320 a few years ago (2018?). VSP has been using SIG pistols since 1993 and the 357 SIG cartridge since 1997.
They seem to be happy with both the SIG pistols and the 357 SIG cartridge.
 
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Winelover

North Central Arkansas
IIRC, our military recently replaced the Beretta with the Sig P320. Available in full size or Compact. Ability to switch frame/grip sizes, by switching out the fire control group to an alternate frame. Frames are equipped with an accessory rail.

In addition, P320 innovations were one of the first manufacturer to offer slides milled for the mini reflex sights. And models to include their own version of those sights.

When the P320 RX Compact was introduced, I picked one up, mainly for a bedside gun. None of my other handguns had an accessory rail and I wanted a light mounted on a handgun. I also like reflex sights and have been using them since the late 80's. The RX compact also comes standard with suppressor height night sights. Which cowitness with the reflex red dot. Sig's red dot is motion activated and retains the last brightness setting. I've only recently replaced the battery since firearm was purchased in 2017.


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Sig also offers rail lights. I purchased one but soon replaced it with Crimson Trace's version. The paddles on the Sig's offering was a bit too stiff for my liking. Had to operate it with the off hand. It now resides on the CZ Scorpion carbines forearm.

The P320 had all the features I was looking for, in addition to being DAO. Uncluttered with manual safeties is a plus for a southpaw like myself.

I have close to one thousand rounds though this firearm without a hiccup. Most were cast. Would be higher round count, except I hate chasing brass and have five other nines.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
The Swiss have a long history of being a little ahead of the pack or at least a little different. They are fiercely independent and that has served them well in the long run.

That innovation can be seen in their firearm’s history. Straight pull actions on their rifles when most countries were using bolt actions. (Yeah, their straight pull was still a bolt action but a little different).

Adopting the 7.5x55mm in the early 1900’s. That uniquely Swiss cartridge is almost 7.62mm……but not quite (.306” v. .308”, they had to be just a little different). Sort of a 7mm Mauser with a nearly 30 caliber bullet.

The P75 pistol, AKA P220, was a leap forward in design and manufacturing techniques but they held onto some traditional engineering.

The P320 is likewise a mixture of innovation and conservative engineering.

A removable fire control group on the P320 is nothing new. That has been seen in pistols such as the P210, the Soviet TT-33 and the French model 1935 pistol. However, putting the entire fire control group in one unit and then mating that with a polymer frame – that was new.

If you study the world of watchmaking, you will find many of the advancements in mechanical watches have been the result of Swiss engineering and design. They seem to be very good at carefully moving forward while keeping solidly grounded. It is a good blend of conservative engineering with innovation.