Subsonic expansion testing

[Jeff H]

.......I guess the expansion comes in because a WC will only fly so far..........

For my specific application, it's not about flying well to 100 yards or 80 yards, and the full diameter of a 35 is plenty to make a terminal hole in varmint/vermin.

I'm more interested in the parachute effect of the bullet opening up. I've blown wood chucks half in two, blood and guts sprawled ten feet, with small-caliber hollow-points traveling three-plus times the speed of sound, only to walk up and find them still trying to chomp something. When they get smacked with one of these, they stiffen suddenly/momentarily and then slump over dead. I can't explain that.

Quiet, close in, low velocity and soft lead has a decisive effect which is very much void of drama. No horrendous blast, no body parts flying and no "rest mist." Just dead.

 

[Bret4207]

1) For "fun." I'm well beyond feeling a need for a practical reason for the guns I choose and what I shoot in them and simply do a lot of what I do to entertain myself. I'm making up for some early days of my youth, when smiling was considered aberrant and devious behavior.

2) On a more pragmatic note, in reference to the bullet on the left in my post #16, there is more to it than fun. THAT same 35 caliber bullet, fired from a carbine at maybe 450 or 500 fps entered a big woodchuck, between the shoulder blades - at thirty feet, and did not exit. Even a BIG woodchuck isn't all that big - or "thick." IT likely did not open up as much as shown in post 16, but I'd bet it smushed out a fair bit. The stack of clay tile he was peeking over (in the wrong direction, obviously) was unscathed and I had no concerns about where the bullet went. That's actually a practical concern I have for the 1% of "work" my guns do. Some varmint or vermin always manages to position itself such that shooting it will yield collateral damage that I'll be stuck patching up.

I can't answer for anyone else, but that's why I mess with this stuff.

Big Woodchuck vs 358009, old COWW, out of my 35 Whelen at around 1550-1600 fps at 80ish yards, went right on through and buried itself in the dirt of my meadow. Wish I could have found it. Didn't do the Woodchuck any good at all!!!

 

[Bret4207]

Interesting thoughts guys. No criticism intended, just wondering about peoples goals. I'll keep reading!

 

[Bret4207]

Quiet, close in, low velocity and soft lead has a decisive effect which is very much void of drama. No horrendous blast, no body parts flying and no "rest mist." Just dead.

I've done quite a bit of playing around with the 32 S+W/S+W Long out of a #4 Rem. Anything RN is about useless on stuff larger than a field rat. Put a FN on it and things change drastically, even in the shorter case where you can still get 1k-ish fps out of a rifle. Reminds me of my 36 cal ML- that full caliber round ball is a lot more effective than I ever thought it would be.

 

[Missionary]

A pure lead RB is a flying object that should not be under estimated.

 

[L Ross]

Thanks. You made my day.

Fanny

 

[L Ross]

I've done quite a bit of playing around with the 32 S+W/S+W Long out of a #4 Rem. Anything RN is about useless on stuff larger than a field rat. Put a FN on it and things change drastically, even in the shorter case where you can still get 1k-ish fps out of a rifle. Reminds me of my 36 cal ML- that full caliber round ball is a lot more effective than I ever thought it would be.

I remember reading gun rag articles with photos of tree squirrels shot with whatever brand muzzle loader the magazine was shilling for. A nice woodland back drop of a stump, a faux looking cap lock muzzle loader and 3 or 4 dead squirrels, all neat and tidy.

My .36 caliber round ball head shot squirrels would not pass the FB gore-o-meter. Raggedy ass lookin' heads with pieces missing, tongues lolling out, skull caps at odd angles, nasty! I'm shootin' a .38 spl. case full of 3fg Swiss, about 21 grains from a 42" barrelled flinter.

 

[Jeff H]

You guys are getting me all worked up now!

THIS is the essence of shooting and hunting to me!

@Bret4207 , the ONLY reason I don't mess with the 32s is that I made myself make a choice to narrow things down and simplify my battery. Since the 38/357 (actually only almost 36 cal.) could cover THAT base as well as be really beefed up to boot, I made that compromise. Otherwise, the 32s are intriguing and extremely viable general purpose arms. @Outpost75 (likely you all know) has written some great articles on the topic as well.

@L Ross , when I "built" (from a kit, but requiring monumental effort for what they give you) my muzzle-loader in the mid-eighties, I chose the Lyman Great Plains in 50 cal. with a 32" 1:66" barrel, knowing that at the time, Green Mountain made "drop-in" 36 cal barrels in RB twist for a really attractive price. This ML was intended to be my "one and only" ML, from that point forward, and it is yet today, but I missed the Green Mountain 36 cal barrel. I had reasoned t hat the 50 was good enough for anything, but the 36 would be a lot of fun and "cheaper" for shooting squirrels.

Later, I learned that "Ohio Rifles," where I had moved back to, after getting proficient with that rifle, were commonly 38 and 40 caliber rifles. Ohio game law sets a minimum caliber for MLs at 38 cal. Folks way back when must have known how to hunt, because folks in my time considered my "50" a bit on the light side, and were buying and building 54s, 58s and 62s - for white-tailed deer.

I think a lot of emphasis on more "power" making up for all the bother of actually hunting has obscured experience and knowledge gained, possessed and implemented from and during the "black powder era." So, here we go, learning it all over again in our own time, but I guess it's ore fun figuring it out for ourselves than having someone else just hand it to us.

@Missionary , love the new avatar. I mistook you for a dear (departed) old Ukranian friend before clicking on it and getting a closer look. Quite a handsome mug, Sir.

When a puny 177 grain, half-inch diameter, pure lead round-ball, starting out at just under 2kfps, will pass clear through the chest of a 180 to 200# white-tailed deer at, just over a hundred yards, and make a clean, non-dramatic kill, I would argue in favor of your point til' the cows came home. No gaping, gory exit-wounds, no lolling tongues, no missing body parts,... Hard to argue against that.

 

[Bret4207]

I remember reading gun rag articles with photos of tree squirrels shot with whatever brand muzzle loader the magazine was shilling for. A nice woodland back drop of a stump, a faux looking cap lock muzzle loader and 3 or 4 dead squirrels, all neat and tidy.

My .36 caliber round ball head shot squirrels would not pass the FB gore-o-meter. Raggedy ass lookin' heads with pieces missing, tongues lolling out, skull caps at odd angles, nasty! I'm shootin' a .38 spl. case full of 3fg Swiss, about 21 grains from a 42" barrelled flinter.

Agree. IIRC my pet load with the 36 was 35gr FFFG. Way more power than you'd think. Head shot a porky one day and I not only had a DRT/dropped outta the tree, but a good portion of the far side of the head was blown to smithereenies as Yosemite Sam would say. People told me it was too small for anything but squirrels. They were wrong.

 

[Bret4207]

Jeff, you mentioning 40 cals made me once again gets a huge case of the regrets for not buying a set of vintage flinters from the 1800's from a gunsmith/collector I knew. I think the larger one was a 50ish cal, but the smaller 40 I really liked. The price was very reasonable even in those days, but I was broke, as usual, and I didn't bite. I also could have, and should have, bought the "Carlos Gove Rifle" out of Roberts "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle" book, but at the time my interests were screwed up and I didn't see the opportunity for what it was.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. The story of my life.

 

[Glaciers]

Bret don’t feel like the Lone Ranger. I can relate.

 

[Jeff H]

Bret don’t feel like the Lone Ranger. I can relate.

Ditto.

Shouldn't blame yourself (even though I DO still blame myself) for not having the cash at the right time. At any time that was the case, cash was going toward the family - car repairs, houe repairs, groceries, propane, insurance premiums, you name it. I got two great kids all grown up and my wife still lets me live here, so I think I came out ahead.

 

[Bret4207]

Know whatcha' mean Jeff. Growing up and becoming a responsible adult was one of the worst decisions I ever made!!!

 

[Missionary]

The only issue I see with a caliber .40 ML is some states require a caliber .45 as minimum. We have one and ILL-Nois is one of those places.

Jeff.. New avitar.. the yellow "mountain" pineapples are ripe !!!! They are our favorites !! Wife took the photo to send our young-uns as they liked these tasty treats also. "Mountain" is a funny one here. From our house there is a 20,000 footer 23 miles from our roof. These yellow beauties grow at 3000 feet or so......... So if you have never had one you are missing real good eating.
My grandfather on dad's side was born in Russian. But he had some strong anti Lenin feelings. My dad was born as they were getting out through Warsaw.

 

[Bret4207]

The only issue I see with a caliber .40 ML is some states require a caliber .45 as minimum. We have one and ILL-Nois is one of those places.

Jeff.. New avitar.. the yellow "mountain" pineapples are ripe !!!! They are our favorites !! Wife took the photo to send our young-uns as they liked these tasty treats also. "Mountain" is a funny one here. From our house there is a 20,000 footer 23 miles from our roof. These yellow beauties grow at 3000 feet or so......... So if you have never had one you are missing real good eating.
My grandfather on dad's side was born in Russian. But he had some strong anti Lenin feelings. My dad was born as they were getting out through Warsaw.

NY I think is still 45 cal for big game. But you can go out and hunt deer with a 32-20 and factory loads, or a 32 S+W for that matter. I suppose it's impossible to cover every possible dumb idea. And then there's the whole "primitive firearms" idea that now okays sabots, jacketed bullets, BP/Pydrodex pellets, scopes, etc., or archery that allows cross bows-with scopes! Sometimes things get weird.

 

[Jeff H]

I'm pretty sure that in Ohio, and maybe New York, that all the perversions to "primitive weapons" seasons are less about what fits the description than how many deer they need to get dead. Before all the technical gee-gaw and imagined advantages, our ML season was in January, after all the stumble-bum, one-a-year hunters pour out of the cities and flood the countryside to terrorize everything. Never made sense. Should have been right after , or at the end of archery season.

 

[Ian]

Should have been right after , or at the end of archery season.

Yes. IIRC that's still how it is here. THEN open season. Used to be archery meant a bow with x number of pounds pull, any type, and broadheads. Crossbow only with doctors signed note about upper body disability. Now crossbow is unrestricted.

 

[Missionary]

Happily ILL-nois has bow season first for 6 weeks. Ends up with near 3 months total time. Was recurves or long bows. 45 pounds and up.
Then came the mechanicals. Then all the do-dads on the hand held machine. About that time crossbows were in with a Doctors OK which finally authorized real disability fellers go stick a corn cruncher.
Today if it has a string or cable and flings something tail stabilized it passes muster.

 

[Bret4207]

Used to be the special seasons were for the small groups of ML's or archers that pursued a traditional style of hunting with primitive equipment. Then the State saw that if more people bought licenses for the special seasons, it was more revenue for the state. Thus, scope sighted, bolt action muzzle loaders firing jacketed bullets and scope sighted crossbows. I suppose we should be happy there are no "vintage military firearm" seasons or there'd be a push to allow B-25's and those Russian rocket launchers...

 

[Glaciers]

Well no pointy sticks for me and never got into M Loaders, but just a deprived upbringing I guess.
But, along the lines of subsonic lead projectiles that may or may not expand, I thought about posting but decided it was a drift that might be to far. But then again maybe not a bridge to far after reading some of the postings here.
Spindrift started out testing rifle bullets with differing hollow points, subsonic, then the thread went into expansion with various hollow points compared to non hollow point bullets at various hardnesses of castings.
So here goes my drift.
A few years back I was interested in dropping below 1000 fps but increasing bullet weight which would also tend towards a softer alloy. Had been a hard core maxed out 44 mag guy for quite a while. Good reason up here, but not really pleasant.
So I started looking into the 50 SPL for a pistol and a 480 Rossi for a carbine. A friend has a 480 Rossi which I’ve been after, trying to pry it out of his hands, and he informed me that I could buy it when he passed.. well he’s 20 years younger than me.
After pricing have a revolver made in 50 SPL I decided the 480 Ruger I was shooting could be toned down a bit with 400 + grain bullets and that would achieve my goal with the obvious compromise’s. You know, ugly gun and a measly .475 diameter compared to.510.
Well you say buy a S&W 500. Well that and the 480 in a carbine got set aside for the far more practical 45-70 levergun.
So my interest has gone to 3 cartridges in 3 sixguns. First I still love the 44 mag, so with that in mind I have a 310 grain SSK mold that is great in the six guns but won’t cycle thru my Browning B92, just to long. So I’m starting to load that bullet into 44 SPL cases. Need to check first before I make this my standard that they won’t function in my 44 SPL pistols. Might have to crimp over he front band in 44 mag cases for safety. Would not be good to get a hot 44 -310 grain loaded in the SPL case in a Charter Arms. Looking for about 1000 plus fps in the 44.
Next I’m looking at the 45 AR with a 304 grain NOE at about 800 fps. Yeah but before you say your nuts to the 45 AR idea I’m using a 625 and a new 1950 - 22-4. The cartridge is going to have a COL of 1.320 which is one tenth long the anything I’ve seen for loads out there.
But the 480 ugly gun loaded down between 900 to 1100 with a 410 grain I’m thinking will stop most Mastodon’s running loose.
I played a little with the 45 AR and the 44 in the SPL cases but this is just in the infancy at this point, but.
Won’t need a HP with these diameter’s, but will be looking at the 40-1 and 30-1 powder coated so I hope this will fit the fun side, and might be practical as well..
All 3 of these cartridges will be used with lighter bullets in the main, like a 280 in the 44, 255 or lighter in the 45, but the 480 the suggested loading above will probably be the “one”.