Switching Encore To Hand Gun

3

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
I've asked this question on another site, but am still not sure at this point, so asking here too.
A few years ago i put an Encore frame on lay-a-way. The box contained a new frame and also a set of camo rifle stocks, but no bbl.
After i paid the frame off, i put a rifle bbl. on lay-a-way for it.

I think there's a law that says if they come set up with a rifle bbl. originally, they can't be converted later to a hand gun. If it comes set up with a hand gun bbl. originally, it can be changed to a rifle configuration legally.
The receipt on mine just says frame and camo stocks and the price was the same as for just a frame.

My question is since i bought it as a frame with no bbl., but it did come with the rifle stocks....is it still legal to set it up with pistol stocks and bbl?

Who makes all these crazy, confusing laws anyway? Since this one came with rifle stocks it seems the intent was for it to be a rifle, but the box and receipt just says frame and stocks. There was no slot for a bbl. in the box either, just the frame and stock slots.
The guy running the place now says it's ok, but i'm not sure he knows what he's talking about.
 
Rick

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
I think if you check into it you'll find it depends which state your in. If CA forget it, everything is illegal. In CA once a rifle always a rifle but if it were a federal law and illegal across the board T/C wouldn't/couldn't sell them that way, they would be either a rifle or a handgun, period.

As for who makes all these crazy, confusing laws . . . Liberals.
 
Winelover

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
Normally, the firearm frame has the serial number.......so if you didn't have to jump through any pistol purchasing hoops, I wouldn't think of converting it to pistol configuration.
 
Josh

Josh

Well-Known Member
The Encore and Contender series have an "exemption" from the ATF, but if bought as a frame it can be either since the paperwork is not specified as a rifle.
 
B

Blaster

Member
I searched the ATF website and could not find a concrete answer so I sold my Encore pistol barrels and have no Contender rifle barrels. 260 Rem and 270 Win not a lot of fun in pistol configuration anyway!
 
3

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
Found out something i didn't know before. The dealer is supposed to put on the form they have to fill out if it's designated rifle or pistol. I'm afraid since it came with rifle stocks in the box even though there was no bbl. sold, they may have put it down as a rifle on the form they fill out.
I'll stop by and see if he can look it up or run the serial no. on it next time i'm that way.

Ben, i see it the way you do. Anyway, if it's not designated on the form they use, it seems i'm good to go.
Sure seems like a lot of fuss over nothing considering the fact they're just single shots for crying out loud and designed to be a switch bbl.
Why in the world would it matter how it comes out of the box originally? It truly boggles the mind.
 
Ben

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
You're right, who in their right mind would attempt to use it as an assault / tactical weapon anyway ? ?

Gee, ............................" Was your sling-shot purchased to use for targets or to hunt with. Once you get it home, you can't change ."
 
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Ian

Ian

Notorious member
35 shooter said:
Found out something i didn't know before. The dealer is supposed to put on the form they have to fill out if it's designated rifle or pistol. I'm afraid since it came with rifle stocks in the box even though there was no bbl. sold, they may have put it down as a rifle on the form they fill out.
I'll stop by and see if he can look it up or run the serial no. on it next time i'm that way.

Ben, i see it the way you do. Anyway, if it's not designated on the form they use, it seems i'm good to go.
Sure seems like a lot of fuss over nothing considering the fact they're just single shots for crying out loud and designed to be a switch bbl.
Why in the world would it matter how it comes out of the box originally? It truly boggles the mind.
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I don't know, only musing, but my first thought was "what did they put on the 4473 when you bought it???". The frame has to be declared as one or the other when transferred as far as I know, at least there's a field for it on the 4473 and that's always the first question my dealer asks me before accepting a transfer through the mail. If it was sold as a "long gun", then maybe you would need to do the SBR paperwork to put a short barrel on it....but then again, handguns without shoulder stocks don't require SBR paperwork, it's only an issue if you have a shoulder stock and short barrel configured at the same time...... Or happen to have the parts in your immediate possession to make it that way if Johnny ATF happens to be present and thinks you have "intent".
 
Ian

Ian

Notorious member
Ben said:
You're right, who in their right mind would attempt to use it as an assault / tactical weapon anyway ? ?

Gee, ............................" Was you sling-shot purchased to use for targets or to hunt with. Once you get it home, you can't change ."
Click to expand...

Yup, like the M203 rifled grenade launcher. I can buy one no problemo and shoot chalk training rounds out of it. However, the instant that I reload for it, or technically the instant I acquire reloading tooling for the cartridges, I'd better register it as a Destructive Device because I have things laying around the house to make any sort of solid, 'anti-personnel" rounds for it. If I DO make anti-personnel rounds for it, EACH ONE has to be registered beforehand on an ATF form one and the $200 tax paid. If I want to make explosive shells for it, that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax involving a pyrotechnics license and registered, inspected storage and handling facilities. Even a golf ball can be filed down to fit and since I have both golf balls and files in my shop, I *could* make a large-caliber killing tool out of it. Of course, I have pipe and black powder to go with those golf balls, too, but that's beside the point. Maybe. Or, I could buy a 37mm smooth-bore flare launcher and signal flares through the mail because that is considered a "signaling device" as no "anti-personnel" rounds have been produced for it. I can reload for that, too, but only "signaling rounds", and that requires a pyro license etc. What's really silly is that I can make an AR-15 out of an un-registered, 80% lower receiver that I finish into a firearm 100% by myself, but to get a suppressor for it I have to get special permission from the ATF, do an NFA transfer, and pay a $200 tax. Mind-boggling, indeed.
 
3

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
Ian, that's exactly what it's coming down to...what's on the form. I'll be working in the little town i bought it in next week, so i'll stop in and see if they mind checking on it for me.
I wasn't aware of all this when i bought it and thought i could just buy the correct stocks for the length bbl. i wanted to shoot and switch back and forth anytime. Ignorance WAS bliss!!
 
3

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
Ben said:
You're right, who in their right mind would attempt to use it as an assault / tactical weapon anyway ? ?

Gee, ............................" Was you sling-shot purchased to use for targets or to hunt with. Once you get it home, you can't change ."
Click to expand...
Ben i remember as a kid buying slingshots that had a wire hanger with a slot in it. You could put the hanger on the sling shot and shoot arrows out of it across the little u-shaped slot. Wasn't very powerful, but great fun watching the arrow fly.
Guess that's regulated too as i don't see them anymore.
 
Tomme boy

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
TC has an exemption status on this. I have the letter in my files somewhere. The atf sent them out years ago to ffl holders. I had a C&R and they even sent it to me along with the whole books on their laws and rules.

And the 4473 has a spot for "other" as that is what they say a frame is. If it is an AR frame all you have to do is put a pistol upper on it first. Then according to them it is always a pistol from that time on even if you turn it into a rifle. BUT you can not take a lower that started out as a rifle and turn it into a pistol. If you did then it is a SBR. Thats why every frame needs to start as a pistol no matter what. And that is also why an ffl can not sell a frame or receiver to people under 21. And why you can't buy a frame out of your state at a dealer. It has to be sent to an fflin your state if you do.
 
J

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Rick said:
What Tomme boy wrote isn't an opinion. That is the ATF decision on switching a T/C from handgun to rifle.
Click to expand...

I have been over this numerous times and have read the many, many sound arguments and interpretations, but I think @Tomme boy has stated it about as clearly and succinctly as I've seen done.

I think the main problem people have with this is that it doesn't make sense to a logical person. The whole thing is rather stupid, the Courts thought so too, but ATF couldn't just admit that and come up with a sensible exception. THAT part IS opinion. Maybe there is wisdom in that law which I am too obtuse to understand, but it IS one of the most convoluted things written for the masses to try to understand without letter and a lawyer.

Most of the misinterpretations I've read make more sense than the actual law, but this is where the problem lies - it does NOT make sense, so applying sense to interpreting it could get a body in some trouble. I've seen a lot of people make a lot of reasonable arguments for other interpretations, so I'm not saying I'm smarter than them. If anything, I may have an advantage in NOT being smarter than them, because it seems someone not all that smart wrote that law. I was trying to say all that without insulting anyone, but there it is - can't be done.

After the Courts effectively told ATF "c'mon, man, that's ridiculous" regarding the original issue, ATF built in another "trap" to keep it ridiculous in another manner.

What are the chances you'll get busted? Not worth taking even the remotest chance for me, and I don't even shoot at public ranges, or with other people in private.

Maybe ATF couldn't make a case against you, but it would still be a legal battle I can't afford. I cringe when I see someone's stuff confiscated in a blatantly illegal manner, even knowing they will win their case, because they have to pay a lawyer and deal with the hassles all the same. I know a young man who's straight as an arrow, but shared rent of a house with several other young men he really didn't want to, because they were all broke.

Because one of them had some weed in his private room, everyone in the house was denied the right to possess a firearm again by a municipal judge in a small town. None of them owned a firearm at the time, but when the one I reference wanted to, he had to hire a lawyer and the next judge said the last judge was flat out wrong. Still, this young man had to pay the lawyer. Fortunately he did not have to try to recover a confiscated firearm, but it cost him as much as buying a firearm. He was lucky that even more mistakes weren't made and didn't pay that much, but it was still 100% more than he ever should have had to.
 
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