Testing P14 yesterday.

KHornet

Well-Known Member
The April issue of Handloader has an article by Ventarino(sp probably) that covers a comparison between 303 SMLE's and 303 P14's. He pretty much says that accuracy in the SMLE's is poor to non existant by his standards. He likes the P14 (which is basically the 1917 Enfield but in 303), because its a strong action with peep sight. A couple of months ago I traded something for an ugly old war horse P14 that had the long range gizmo on the left side ground off, (done for WWII) was used for volley fire in WWI according to what I looked up. Any how, I loaded up a bunch of Ranch Dog 165 gr .314, 2 coats of BLL over 16gr, 17gr, and 17.5 gr. of 2400, and some 314198 (NOE) GC
.314's with 17 1/2 2400, with BR, BLL, and headed for the 50 yd range. I used Jim's round circle with a large white triangle point down target, which is most excellent for old eyes and open sights. All of them shot better than I expected, with the 17 1/2 gr loads shooting tightest, and all more than acceptable for gong type shooting out to probably 100. The 198 produced the best grouping with one 50 yd 5 shot going into 2.6" at 50, but 4 of the 5 going into just a smidge over an inch, which was obviously
me on the 5th. Think I will cast up batch of the 198's and get a bit more serious about the 17.5 gr. of 2400 load.

As to the Handloader article, loading similar loads in my MK III SMLE, a cobbled together, well beat up version, ugly as a bucket of snot, it is fun to shoot but not as accurate as the P14. Both rifles I am sure saw appreciable action, who knows where, but most likely in the hands of grunt infantrymen, and probable not serious riflemen.
I believe that the 17 Enfield was Sgt. Alvin York's rifle, and I think of that when I shoot. Would really like to get a copy of both rifles in pristine condition, but being old and
cheap, will probably never happen, so will be content with what I have. I believe the Brit standard for the 303 SMLE was 4 MOA. Mine might do that. Would expect better from the P14.

Paul
 
Last edited:

fiver

Well-Known Member
I think York used the 17 in 30-06.
I have a P-14 with big old made in the us give it back when done on the side.
I use the exact same jacketed load as I do in my 308 and the rifle actually shoots, all my other 303's were pretty tired old horses and had accuracy issues, at least what I considered accuracy issues, I'm sure the
Brit dot gov. thought they were fine.
 

S Mac

Sept. 10, 2021 Steve left us. You are missed.
I know next to nothing about the old milsurps but sounds like fun.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
S Mac, I do find them fun as well as being nostalgic
to an old history buff like myself.

Paul
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
You are correct Fiver, was 17 Enfield in 06.
Had head in dark spot again when I typed.

Paul
 

VZerone

Active Member
Well the British were going to build the Pattern 13 rifle for the .276 caliber, but WWI happened and they found themselves short of rifle. Thus they asked the U.S. to buil the Pattern 14 in .303 caliber. The U.S. saw the Pattern 14 being a good rifle so made some modifications to make them in 30-06. Anyways I believe the British had agents at the production plants here to oversee the Pattern 14 manufacture. I'm pretty sure they had all the specifications that they passed on to the American manufacturers. I would presume they had the left hand 5 groove rifling much like their SMLE's. I also think that some had two groove barrels. The British two groove barrels were different then American two groove. I hear the American two groove is better because the land/groove ration is better then the British. Finally, although I don't have one, I'll make an assumption that the Pattern 14 has the same sloppy chambers as the SMLE's.
 

VZerone

Active Member
There has been a lot of exploration and study of the action ground area where Sgt York's battle persued. The consensus is about 99.9% sure he was using an 1917 Enfield. His rifle was stolen from him on the ship on the way back to the U.S. so he would never reveal the serial number of so the thief wouldn't know it was his rifle! If he had of we would know for sure. His battalion was issused 1917 Enfields, but there were some 1903 Springfields floating around. As a battle rifle the 1917 Enfield was better as being more robust and having protected sights, and the rear being a peep sight on the rear receiver ring. The 03 Springfield was a better target rifle, the German 98 a better hunting rifle, and British SMLE the best battle rifle.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
if you showed me a silhouette outline of a 17 and a 14 side by side I probably couldn't tell you which is which.
I have both and I keep them separated just so I don't accidentally grab one or the other and the wrong ammo.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
th


pretty standard fare, I have seen some without it.
that's not mine, mine is more umm used.
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
P14 is beautiful and built like a tank. Had Dad's sporter I bought for him, but traded it for a Savage 99 in 284 Win. Days I wish I hadn't, even as a sporter...
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I saw a ostensible photocopy of a page from York's diary where he said that they "took our
Springfield rifles and issued us British Enfield rifles". I would assume that at the time it
was well known that the US 1917 rifle was a British Enfield design, and cannot imagine that
he was talking about SMLEs.

I have had pretty decent luck with my SMLEs as far as accuracy. Not any kind of a sniper rifle
but you wouldn't want to stand out there at 300 yds and get shot at with one!

I have a P14 and US 1917, neither of which is particularly accurate, nothing even close
to my 1903 and 1903A3s which, with good ammo, are just barely not able to consistently
deliver a 5 shot group under 1" at 100 yds. Usually have one shot that opens it up to 1.5"
or 1 3/4", with four in like 5/8 - 3/4".
Brit SMLEs more like 2 1/2 - 3" and same for P14 and US 1917, although I have gotten a couple of
2" groups with the 1917, although it won't show it to me all the time.

Bill
 

VZerone

Active Member
I have a P14 and US 1917, neither of which is particularly accurate, nothing even close
to my 1903 and 1903A3s which, with good ammo, are just barely not able to consistently
deliver a 5 shot group under 1" at 100 yds. Usually have one shot that opens it up to 1.5"
or 1 3/4", with four in like 5/8 - 3/4".
Brit SMLEs more like 2 1/2 - 3" and same for P14 and US 1917, although I have gotten a couple of
2" groups with the 1917, although it won't show it to me all the time.

Are you talking cast ammo or jacketed? I HAD a Lithgow and would shoot about an inch with the 314299 and all the 03 Springfields I have/had would do 3/4 inch with the 314299 and 311284. Back when the ole eyes were good.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Glad to hear your getting out there with the correct ammo, Paul.:D
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I was talking about jacketed ammo, handloads and military surplus, although
the best 1903 was with handloads.

Bill
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
my 03A3 really likes the 311041 only rifle I have that does like that bullet.
the 17 does well with the rcbs 30-150 which is similarly shaped but hates the 041.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Fiver, most of my rifles are female, and tend to be persnickety when
it comes to what I shove down the tube. Particularly with cast.

Paul
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
they do have feelings sometimes.
I got the 041 for the 17 because it's throat said it would like it.
nope.
the close-nuff mold I already had is the one it does shoot well, I would try other molds but [shrug] it's shooting as good as it does with jacketed now just slower.
I tried410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410410
Jax says hello.

I tried the 041 in the 03 because I had some rounds left for the 17 and it was an instant hit... go figure.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Yep~Shot theP14his a.m. with 165 Ranch Dog, .315,
17.5 gr. 2400, no fill. Put four into 1.175" and then
thru the 5th. The rifle likes that load. Also shot
116 NOE GC, 2 cts of BLL, Al Check, over 7 gr. Am
Select, (.315), it is a SWC pistol bullet. Put 4 into .975
and threw the last on out to about 2.5" and that was
me and I called it. Getting to be a habit, this throwing
the 4th shot out. Then I tried the same Ranch Dog
over 15 gr of Unique, and splattered 10 rounds into
2.5", but it was dirty a load as I have shot in a long
time. Think I will stay away from Unique in this rifle.
All things considered, with issue sights, I was not
at all unhappy with results with the Ranch Dog. Will
have to try 041 in it. Have one in HP. (all at 50 yd
by the way)

Paul