The insanity continues but is paying off!

[JWFilips]

Did some shooting with my Savage 340 /30WCF today at 50 yards:
Pretty much my usual load for the 165 NOE Ranch Dog...Today it was 6.2 grains American Select with the NOE 165 Gas check base sans the check because it was powder coated with my usual Smoke's Clear PC Load coming in at just subsonic ( the way I like them).
The insanity well; every bullet was weighed to .1 grain, every load was weighed to 6.2 grain ( +/ - 0 grain): twenty five of the cases were weighed to .1 grain...then the rest varied!
The top two targets were shot with 10 round each of the .1 variance cases! The center target was shot with 5 of the .1 variance cases but the other 5 were random! The bottom targets were shot with all random weights of brass!
The top targets were my first 20 shots ( which are not usually my best) So I think it was an interesting experiment!
The best thing I got out of it is I got my rifle trigger discipline back after one year of only shooting pistol!
Oh yes,
The lower left target has 11 shots and the lower right has 9 shots! Had a mild senior moment!

 

[Missionary]

Those weighed case groups are looking good from down here. Head shoot groundhogs with that all day long.

 

[Jeff H]

Nice work!

I'm a big fan of the 30/30, and especially with that bullet. I have some PC'd but haven't tried them yet.

How did you size them - .001" over groove, same as groove,...?

 

[JWFilips]

Jeff,
.002 over!
Jim

 

[Jeff H]

Jeff,
.002 over!
Jim

Good to know and thank you.

I've been sizing my tumble-lubed wonders .003" over and wasn't sure if that would be appropriate for the PC'd ones. Obviously, I'll experiment, but fewer bullets (ok, primers) wasted in development is a good thing.

 

[JWFilips]

Jeff,
My rule is fit the bullet to the throat! Groove diameter is meaningless with cast! I like a tight fit in the throat and after that it all goes down the barrel! Only real issue is; starting out with light loads and working up!
Never use published loads with this method! Also I start all my loads stuck in the lands for "low node" so again you have to make the loading rules, not published data!
Aways error on the side of safe!

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

That is pretty impressive. Have you gotten the smaller groups in the past. When using cases separated by weight?
Do you separate your bullets after PC or before?
I have separated cases by brand but not by weight. Weight separation may just be in my future.

 

[RBHarter]

I will testify to weigh lotted cases and tell you it sometimes it matters a lot .
I had this Savage 06' .......
.3 gr of 4350 opened groups from .8 to 1.5 " . 2 gr of case weight would park a bullet in the next zip code , no , really , 18" away at 100 yd .

Of course I had a Savage 308 that shot basically under 6" with whatever fell off the bench into the action and 2" or less with matching ammo ......as long as bullets were under 175 gr .

It always makes a difference, sometimes it's a huge difference sometimes it's an irritating flier .

 

[richhodg66]

That's good shooting, those little 340s are better rifles than many realize. Was this with iron sights?

 

[Jeff H]

.....I like a tight fit in the throat and after that it all goes down the barrel! Only real issue is; starting out with light loads and working up!....

My mode under normal conditions as well. My reference to "groove" is relative to how much one can squeeze a PC bullet in the bore and maintain the benefits of PC.

I've read at least twice something to the effect that PC prefers to be closer to groove than we normally would and I never knew (or asked) if there was any reason for that or if it just worked out that way.

All of mine are fairly soft, and I haven't sized any yet. I think I'll follow your lead and size/shoot them like I would my uncoated bullets and go from there.

I appreciate the insight, but now you're making me want to do a bunch of extra work weighing cases. I was perfectly blissful in my (willful) ignorance regarding case weights, but your targets are making me feel guilty and slovenly.

EDIT: I'm shooting the same bullet (final variation) in my 30/30 24", MGM Contender Carbine barrel and I've contemplated removing the GC shank from several of the cavities (6C), but I think I'll just try it with no GC now.

 

[JWFilips]

That is pretty impressive. Have you gotten the smaller groups in the past. When using cases separated by weight?
Do you separate your bullets after PC or before?
I have separated cases by brand but not by weight. Weight separation may just be in my future.

Kevin,
I alway weigh the bullets as the last step before loading just in case the is weight variation in the coating.
I have always separated cases by brand....almost impossible to get different brands wights to match up! Even these are made by Winchester however they are only the Super- speed head stamp.......the Winchester head stamp cases are a bit different. I believe I have 3 different head stamps for Winchester manufactured cases. RP is different then Rem-Peters & Peters I also keep those separate. Federal stamped brass to shows a good amount of weight differences in my stock of cases.

Also on occasion in the past I got a few 1 hole 10 shot groups but now ,experimenting with case weights, It seems to come more frequently

 

[JWFilips]

That's good shooting, those little 340s are better rifles than many realize. Was this with iron sights?

Rich,
You have to remember my 340 is not as stock: I glass bedded it and got rid of the barrel band and floated the barrel. It is only held in the sock by the one receiver screw. I had the top of the receiver drilled and tapped for a weaver style rail Now it is wearing a new 6x to 18 x Vortex scope
It also wears a Lyman 17 Globe front sight with a Lee Shaver aperture disk. When I want to switch back to receiver sights I just remove the scope rail & put on the Receiver sight

 

[Jeff H]

I always separate cases by head-stamp, and have several vintages of several brands of 30/30 brass, some of it possibly older than I am. I know some of it was already "old" when I was using it as a kid with a Savage 24V.

My mode of operation, as a long, ongoing experiment, has been to see just how simple I can make it and get "decent" accuracy, meaning ALL holes on the target consistently absent of "fliers." The objective for my most accurate loads is half-inch or less at fifty yards for five shots. I'll accept an inch for some loads, like the ones I really cheat on and don't even size brass or bullets as (ostensibly) desperate-times' subsistence-hunting. This is my "recreation" as much as a practical thing.

NOW, I'm getting the itch to further squeeze my most accurate loads, and this thread has moved a goal up a few notches on my list of things to do/acquire - buying 500 new 30/30 cases. I'm thinking weight-sorting those could be a one-time investment, and I already deburr flash-holes and trim to consistent lengths when I get a new batch of brass, even on rimmed pistol cases, so I think I can rationalize this expenditure of time.

I'm not sure I'm ready to weigh bullets. That might subvert my original experiment, but this is just so, so tempting. All those holes with no paper hanging in the middle is a very seductive sight.

 

[462]

Did some shooting with my Savage 340 /30WCF today at 50 yards:
Pretty much my usual load for the 165 NOE Ranch Dog...Today it was 6.2 grains American Select with the NOE 165 Gas check base sans the check because it was powder coated with my usual Smoke's Clear PC Load coming in at just subsonic ( the way I like them).
The insanity well; every bullet was weighed to .1 grain, every load was weighed to 6.2 grain ( +/ - 0 grain): twenty five of the cases were weighed to .1 grain...then the rest varied!
The top two targets were shot with 10 round each of the .1 variance cases! The center target was shot with 5 of the .1 variance cases but the other 5 were random! The bottom targets were shot with all random weights of brass!
The top targets were my first 20 shots ( which are not usually my best) So I think it was an interesting experiment!
The best thing I got out of it is I got my rifle trigger discipline back after one year of only shooting pistol!
Oh yes,
The lower left target has 11 shots and the lower right has 9 shots! Had a mild senior moment!

View attachment 28975

Thought about doing the same thing, but never got any further than the thought till last night.

1. Weighed twice-fired Winchester USA 5.56 cases till 10 weighed exactly the same -- 92.6 grains.
2. Weighed Hornady 55-grain FMJs till 10 weighed exactly the same -- 55.6-grains.
3. Loaded four (one fouling shot) with 25.0-grains of BL-C(2), three with 26.0-grains, and three with
27.0-grains.
4. Weighed each round. The average weight of each lot varied less than .01-grain, which is well within the advertized +/- . 01-grain tolerance of the RCBS equipment, and any primer weight variances, though they weren't weighed.*

A Frankford Arsenal electronic scale was use for steps 1, 2, and 4. RCBS's Uni-Flow powder measure and
5-0-5 scale were used for step 3.

I know the experiment is not scientific, and 10 rounds is meaningless, but there it is. Don't know when I'll shoot them, but will report the results.

*Should've used the electronic scale to find 10 primers that weighed the same, and to weigh each powder charge.

 

[Ian]

I've read at least twice something to the effect that PC prefers to be closer to groove than we normally would and I never knew (or asked) if there was any reason for that or if it just worked out that way.

All of mine are fairly soft, and I haven't sized any yet. I think I'll follow your lead and size/shoot them like I would my uncoated bullets and go from there.

Try it, that's what I did and found my own results because nobody really had explored it yet. I found that PC bullets sized just a touch larger than the groove diameter at the origin of the rifling (say half a thousandth) and a nose that snuggles into the leade angle, set back off of the leade a bit, worked best for me in all my rifles from 6.5mm to .458. Notable exceptions being the .223 Wylde and 5.56 throated rifles which liked the bullet to be sized for a light scuff-fit in the throat and that comes out to 2-3 thousandths over groove. Without exception, bevel-base and especially gas check bullet designs shot better in every gun I own than flat base designs when just coated and used for low-mid velocity work where a check wasn't necessary.

 

[fiver]

2. Weighed Hornady 55-grain FMJs till 10 weighed exactly the same -- 55.6-grains.

this will be the down fall of the experiment.
i weighed sorted and whittled until i was blue in the face with inexpensive FMJ's.
as soon as i bought some decent match [or even varmint type] bullets i found instant success.
the only thing the FMJ's done for me was to teach me brass prep.

 

[462]

this will be the down fall of the experiment.
i weighed sorted and whittled until i was blue in the face with inexpensive FMJ's.
as soon as i bought some decent match [or even varmint type] bullets i found instant success.
the only thing the FMJ's done for me was to teach me brass prep.

Exactly. I bought a 1000 piece box, from Midway, at the time when the world was shut down and felt very lucky to have done so. They can produce some excellent accuracy, however not consistently.

On the other hand, and as you said, Hornady 68-grain and Sierra 69-grain match bullets, and Barnes 50-grain Varmint Grenades required a very small amount of time and resources to find 100-yard 1/2 MOA and sub MOA accuracy. Too, my shooting skills and Ruger American rifle are far from those of bench resters, Marine snipers, and Walter.

My brass prep involves everything short of neck turning, which is another thing I've thought about. I doubt, though, it would be worth the expense, time and effort.

 

[Bret4207]

Try it, that's what I did and found my own results because nobody really had explored it yet. I found that PC bullets sized just a touch larger than the groove diameter at the origin of the rifling (say half a thousandth) and a nose that snuggles into the leade angle, set back off of the leade a bit, worked best for me in all my rifles from 6.5mm to .458.

Been pretty much doing that, with bullet/gun combo's that allow it, with everything I own for almost a couple decades now. No experience with PC, but with lube it seems to work pretty good. I have yet to find a gun that likes undersized bullets at all. I do set the nose into the leade, sometimes "hard" into the leade, on some milsurps and it seems to work. I know you do things a lot more science-y than I do, so at least I'm on the right path.

 

[Bret4207]

Exactly. I bought a 1000 piece box, from Midway, at the time when the world was shut down and felt very lucky to have done so. They can produce some excellent accuracy, however not consistently.

On the other hand, and as you said, Hornady 68-grain and Sierra 69-grain match bullets, and Berger 50-grain Varmint Grenades required a very small amount of time and resources to find 100-yard 1/2 MOA and sub MOA accuracy. Too, my shooting skills and Ruger American rifle are far from those of bench resters, Marine snipers, and Walter.

My brass prep involves everything short of neck turning, which is another thing I've thought about. I doubt, though, it would be worth the expense, time and effort.

Good point. Handing a sub MOA rifle to a guy who can do 2 MOA on a good day is kind of wasted effort. That explains a lot of my shooting results!

 

[462]

I know all the variables of each range session are never the same, but came to the realization that, despite the fact the Hornady FMJs can produce 100-yard, five-shot sub-MOA accuracy, the days they didn't was not always my fault. Nor the days when five 100-yard five-shot groups varied from 1 1/2" to sub-MOA.

Be that as it all may be, and the fact that it quickly became apparent it was the unknowingly wrong time to buy a new rifle chambered in a new-to-me cartridge and to scrounge round the country for dies, primers, bullets, and powder, I gladly accepted the bullet's notorious erratic accuracy reputation, because it allowed me to shoot the new rifle when life as we knew it came to a screeching and still ongoing stop.

Phew. Perhaps Jeff, Lynn, Ian, Bret, or another wordsmith can clean up that long-winded sentence.