Rally Hess
Well-Known Member
Fiver, thats kinda where I'm at. I do most of my shooting in the cold and rarely shoot paper, except to work up a load. My avitar is me snaring beaver, which is what I do from November to April most years. I have to carry a .22 pistol for dispatch of live coyote or skunks but want a rifle for the occasional shot at a deer or coyote/fox/wolf while running my trapline. I'm trying to come up with a bullet/alloy that will work on deer but mainly not cause me to have to sew large exit holes on coyote or fox hides. I've not found a jacketed bullet that works for me.Factory offerings and bone mean an hour sewing. Fur buyers aren't real impressed either, especially in this current market.
I'm currently working on a load for a Marlin 336 SS in .30-30. I'm casting the old style Ranchdog 165gr in both dimple point and solid. The rifle likes 24.0 grs of Reloder7 for @ 1850. My alloy is 60/40 coww and monotype, which according to the alloy calculator is suppose to be close to #2, with a BHN of @14. The last group I shot was when it was still fairly cool outside, it put 14 of 15 shots inside a 2" dot at 50 yards over the hood of my truck. I'm going to shoot some 100 yard soon but the bugs are bad this time of year on my range. Tough to keep real goood trigger control when a deer fly is drilling your ear. LOL
I'm currently working on a load for a Marlin 336 SS in .30-30. I'm casting the old style Ranchdog 165gr in both dimple point and solid. The rifle likes 24.0 grs of Reloder7 for @ 1850. My alloy is 60/40 coww and monotype, which according to the alloy calculator is suppose to be close to #2, with a BHN of @14. The last group I shot was when it was still fairly cool outside, it put 14 of 15 shots inside a 2" dot at 50 yards over the hood of my truck. I'm going to shoot some 100 yard soon but the bugs are bad this time of year on my range. Tough to keep real goood trigger control when a deer fly is drilling your ear. LOL
fiver
Well-Known Member
man you ain't kidding about them deer flies.
I probably looked like I was trying to fly-fish out in the boat yesterday.
the deer flies are about the size of a house fly out there and land real soft like, then.... BAM!
i'd stick with the flat point and your lower velocity.
you are just looking to poke holes in them and do radial [internal] damage with that flat point.
how quickly you kill with the shot Is going to depend on placement for sure, but you should be able to poke it right through the shoulders without too much trouble.
I probably looked like I was trying to fly-fish out in the boat yesterday.
the deer flies are about the size of a house fly out there and land real soft like, then.... BAM!
i'd stick with the flat point and your lower velocity.
you are just looking to poke holes in them and do radial [internal] damage with that flat point.
how quickly you kill with the shot Is going to depend on placement for sure, but you should be able to poke it right through the shoulders without too much trouble.
Rally Hess
Well-Known Member
I'm thinking about loading the dimple point during deer season (only two weeks long) and the flat points the rest of the season. I'll test both on beaver carcasses first to see what kind of expansion I get. I'm hoping the alloy is about right for the velocity. When I can shoot without waiveing a tennis racket over my head I'll know more. The flies should be gone in a couple weeks.
Ian
Notorious member
Straight, air-cooled WW alloy (the stuff I keep getting tests around 13 bhn, gets to near 15 with 1% tin added) cast into Lyman 311041 bullets and launched out of my 336 Texan at 1850 fps using 24.5 Reloder 7 pokes small holes in deer very reliably both in and out and doesn't expand or deform much even when going straight through a rib on the way in. I used that load for many years because it shot so well in my 336, but lack of blood trail and usually at least 100 yards of tracking for heart/lung shots got old. I killed several foxes with that load and unfortunately it makes a silver-dollar-sized hole on the exit side because the hide is so thin. I'd be looking for a more pointy bullet for smaller animals, and lower velocity, like around 1300 fps. Single-load those, and go with a softer alloy for deer with the RD bullet so it will at least leave a blood trail. Air-cooled 50/50 pure and WW with 1.5% additional tin is great in the 1600-1800 fps range, probably even better with a cup-point bullet.
Ian
Notorious member
It would probably do better without any additional tin, but that depends on exactly what sort of pressure rise you get with your powder, or to put it another way, how you bump them. Also, a lot of your success will depend on how well the bullet fits the gun, and your case prep techniques. For the low end of that velocity range, I get good results just water quenching from a hot mould, same thing as a medium oven heat treatment. 2500 fps might need a bit hotter heat treat, and definitely less tin fired off with as slow a powder as you can get to burn consistently, probably a ball powder.
Rally Hess
Well-Known Member
I figured I'd probably have to soften my alloy with the dimple point, to keep it from fragmenting. I have access to road killed deer, and will probably do my testing on one of them. I'm not sure I'll change my alloy on the flat point any time soon, the rifle seems to like it, and I cast alot of them (62 lbs). I can live with a hole the size of a silver dollar, but I'm not crazy about chasing a wounded deer. The wolves would more than likely find it first around here. Road kills are getting to be a rare thing too.
F
freebullet
Guest
Thank you all for a lot of good info provided here. The pics are of the boolits I refrence in the op.
The fact they held together that much is amazing. Velocity to alloy relationship is pretty important in handguns. I don't know of a set of rules that always works but I do like a lower Sb alloy heat treated instead of higher Sb and air cooling.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I'm late in my reply for sure.
but the mushroom looks pretty good.
we could break things down from the pictures [me forgetting the alloy of course] and look at the edges for shearing and breakage instead of just lead smear.
the antimonial [crystalline structure] on the edges would give you a clue.
tin's presence would be pronounced also just like in a broken piece of lino-type.
using those clues alone could allow you to tweak the alloy to your velocity and the amount of mushroom with or without weight loss could be adjusted.
you ain't gonna get perfect for sure but either more penetration or accelerated expansion could be tuned.
but the mushroom looks pretty good.
we could break things down from the pictures [me forgetting the alloy of course] and look at the edges for shearing and breakage instead of just lead smear.
the antimonial [crystalline structure] on the edges would give you a clue.
tin's presence would be pronounced also just like in a broken piece of lino-type.
using those clues alone could allow you to tweak the alloy to your velocity and the amount of mushroom with or without weight loss could be adjusted.
you ain't gonna get perfect for sure but either more penetration or accelerated expansion could be tuned.
F
freebullet
Guest
I think I'm going to heat treat some from the same batch & fire them at wfmj too. Seeing the difference might be interesting.
I think the pan lube was leaving way too much lube. Made a mess in short order, in the dies, the sizer, on the cases. It might be possible the excessive amount of lube was affecting accuracy more than alloy being to soft. I finally have a star setup now. Very excited to do more tests over a myriad of velocities & alloys.
I think the pan lube was leaving way too much lube. Made a mess in short order, in the dies, the sizer, on the cases. It might be possible the excessive amount of lube was affecting accuracy more than alloy being to soft. I finally have a star setup now. Very excited to do more tests over a myriad of velocities & alloys.
Will
Well-Known Member
I still haven't found a rifle alloy I have been really happy with.
Last year I shot a doe with a 50/50 cows/pure lead water dropped NOE 35-200 hp. Load was running 1950fps. The bullet zipped right through without much damage. I saw her fall about 75 yards away thankfully. No blood at all.
Last year I shot a doe with a 50/50 cows/pure lead water dropped NOE 35-200 hp. Load was running 1950fps. The bullet zipped right through without much damage. I saw her fall about 75 yards away thankfully. No blood at all.
fiver
Well-Known Member
a hollow point that zips through without any type of opening isn't working properly.
I would be tempted to take a batch of your already made [water dropped] boolits and anneal the top of the noses and do some side by side comparisons.
just returning the top 1/8" back to the air cooled alloy's malleability would make a dramatic change in the boolits terminal performance.
I would be tempted to take a batch of your already made [water dropped] boolits and anneal the top of the noses and do some side by side comparisons.
just returning the top 1/8" back to the air cooled alloy's malleability would make a dramatic change in the boolits terminal performance.
F
freebullet
Guest
We did a little more testing today. We fired some mp454-308k hp's into wfmj. My plan was to capture expanded hollow points from 300gr 1100fps loads with the same alloy air cooled & heat treated.
My estimate of this alloy is 15-16bhn air cooled & 22-25ish heat treated. I really need to order a hardness tester among other things. The air cooled were not captured they passed through 6 wfmj. I found small bits in each jug clearly indicating they expanded.
The heat treated were stopped in the 7th wfmj. This was interesting in comparison to the soft 357 bullets. More to come as I find the rest of the bullets I had prepared previous to some renovations.
Bullets & test gun.
Action shot
Recovered heat treated bullet. Haven't weighed it yet.
Hopefully I will find the 357 heat treated to compare to the earlier air cooled and the soft shallow454-300 hp's I have somewhere. I shared the heart shot photo here and I figured firing those at wfmj would be an interesting comparison.
My estimate of this alloy is 15-16bhn air cooled & 22-25ish heat treated. I really need to order a hardness tester among other things. The air cooled were not captured they passed through 6 wfmj. I found small bits in each jug clearly indicating they expanded.
The heat treated were stopped in the 7th wfmj. This was interesting in comparison to the soft 357 bullets. More to come as I find the rest of the bullets I had prepared previous to some renovations.
Bullets & test gun.
Action shot
Recovered heat treated bullet. Haven't weighed it yet.
Hopefully I will find the 357 heat treated to compare to the earlier air cooled and the soft shallow454-300 hp's I have somewhere. I shared the heart shot photo here and I figured firing those at wfmj would be an interesting comparison.