Trouble with light charges of 2400

L Ross

Well-Known Member
Steel powder was made to compensate for bluedot cold weather bloopers. It ignites easy but burns like charcoal. Very dirty.
In what application have you found Steel to burn dirty? That is my go to powder for high velocity steel shot waterfowl loads and I have not noticed it being dirty. I'm running like 37 grains under 15/16ths oz. of #3 steel shot at well over 1,600 fps. Kills ducks much like my old 1 1/4 oz. of hard lead 4's.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
it does leave a bit of black ash behind that's super similar to the carbon build up some rifles see.
I usually found it on the magazine tube on my semi-auto's and it took a little work to get it off.


Tomme makes a good point.
I've also seen unique do the same thing.

sometimes it's simply a matter of simply switching to a slightly faster powder, or using more of the same.
2400 kinda falls in that spot where faster brings up more of a 2 steps faster rather than 1 step just because of the void of available powders in that zone.
 

todd

Well-Known Member
i use 2400 in my 35/30 and 444 marlin and 30-40 krag, but i use a tuft of dacron on top of the 2400. when i don't, the accuracy is bad.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
Having bought a schuetzen rifle with a ringed chamber, I personally will never put a filler in a cartridge, just me. I have not noticed the inaccuracy of non positioned loads of 2400. I just grab them out of the box, dropped them in the rifle and shoot them. Now I have something else to worry about.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I don’t find 2400 to be “inaccurate” at all. It is position sensitive in loads that don’t fill the case well. I use 16-17 gr in my 30-30 and it does well. Where the position sensitivity shows up is when ranges get longer. At 50 yards it is great, at 100 it shows a little vertical. By 200 yards the vertical is horrendous.
That said 2400 is still my go to rifle powder in many cast loads. For plinking to 100 yards it just works.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
I don’t find 2400 to be “inaccurate” at all. It is position sensitive in loads that don’t fill the case well. I use 16-17 gr in my 30-30 and it does well. Where the position sensitivity shows up is when ranges get longer. At 50 yards it is great, at 100 it shows a little vertical. By 200 yards the vertical is horrendous.
That said 2400 is still my go to rifle powder in many cast loads. For plinking to 100 yards it just works.
I gotta go back and look at my notes. When I was nailing 6" discs off the quarter mile rail with a .308 I recall going from 16.5 grains of 4227 to 16.5 grains of 2400 and gaining just under 200 fps. That got me up to that 1,760 area. Fast enough to flatten the trajectory a bit but not too damaging of my mild steel scrap targets at 80. My memory tells me that was why I switched over to 2400. Was Herc 2400 less position sensitive than the new stuff? I'm still shooting up my Hercules.
 

BBerguson

Official Pennsyltuckian
light charge light bullet = problem every time.
put the 2400 in the 223 and the 4198 in the 308.
I believe this is the problem. Part of the fun of reloading. I’ll up the charge before I start tipping the gun to position the powder or using a filler. Or try some other powders, actually 4227 is next…
 

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
In what application have you found Steel to burn dirty? That is my go to powder for high velocity steel shot waterfowl loads and I have not noticed it being dirty. I'm running like 37 grains under 15/16ths oz. of #3 steel shot at well over 1,600 fps. Kills ducks much like my old 1 1/oz. of hard lead 4's.
1-1.125 oz steel shot loads. Don't notice it too much in my pump, but in my auto it throws unburned powder in my face almost every shot.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
From the guys that make smokeless powder. kernel gets hot from primer blast. Surface MELTS and creates a surrounding cloud of non-burning gas. gas on the outside (plasma) burns, heating the gas and more surface melting. IF the pressure is NOT high enough, the plasma moves away from the gas cloud (gas cloud has pressure), cooling it and slowing MELTING. Plasma needs to be HOT enough and CLOSE enough to start the process on adjacent kernels. Air is a horrible heat conductor so airspace due to large case slows the process. Close kernels increases the total reaction. Great, how does that effect our loads? Compressed loads cause a very fast total reaction - bad. Seating depth changes effective case volume. Heavy bullet, hard crimp or jamming the lands slows bullet release and keeps pressure up. Once bullet moves, pressure decreases. Flake powders have more surface area, rods have lesser so MELTING is slower. Retardants used to slow the MELTING. Filler moves the kernels closer as does high fill. Position sensitivity - one side of the kernels is cold (case) and doesn't melt easy. Kernels are not adjacent, same result. Really low loads have very slow and incomplete reaction. Saw on another site, OP thought bang was the 'explosion', really is the shock wave at the muzzle. Gas fps can be 2-3x the bullet fps. Factories chose powder to get high fill rate for desired performance, we don't often/sometimes. Kinda funny to hear a pressure trace company claim a SEE occurs (sometimes) past the end of the muzzle. They recorded the pressure spike after bullet exit. Reflected down the barrel. Hot supersonic gas tends to illuminate air. Some may claim excess powder burns after the muzzle - it may glow, doubt if it burns. Doesn't help picking powder but may help explain why some don't do what we want.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Popper, that makes a great deal of sense ot me and answers some questions I've had for 40 years. Thanks!
 

JonB

Halcyon member
Popper,
that is a great deal of info packed into one paragraph, I had to read it several times. It dispels a few myths I thought were facts.
Thanks for sharing.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys but I just tried to simplify what the expert said. Just like most stuff burns but the pressure part was very interesting.
 

pcmacd

Member
Tried 15 grs of 2400 in 308 with 130gr and same in 450 bm with a 230 gr bullet. 10 shots each caliber. Had hang fires in all but two shots with the 450 but even those two I heard the firing pin hit. A couple of the 308 shots I had to check the barrel. Had two like that in the 450 but I could see the bullet on the way to target. Chronograph had it at 530 fps. The others were in the 1050 range.

I think I’ll try some Blue Dot again in the 450, 308 I may try some win 231. I’m trying to find something I really like before the end of the month. Local, well stocked gun shop is closing up for good then and I want to stock up some powder.

I just loaded some 223 with 4227 and IMR 4198 and will shoot them wednesday afternoon if all goes well…
Why would you want to
i use 2400 in my 35/30 and 444 marlin and 30-40 krag, but i use a tuft of dacron on top of the 2400. when i don't, the accuracy is bad.
Everthing I have ever read about fillers says to use "nothing but natural products." For example, Kapok.
  • Do people use cotton balls for filler, assuming they are really cotton (in this day and age, you need to be sure?)

It has been speculated that artificial fibers can turn into a semi-solid glob of shite which gets sticky and causes ringing in the chamber &/or barrel.
  • Well, actually, it has been documented a how many times over?

    And I've read of a dozen or more of these experiences over the years.

Damage happens, waaay too often with synthetic fillers.
  • Read the first hand experiences you can find on the internet.

But, AFAIK, ringing does not happen with natural fillers such as Kapok.

Find some ancient life jackets!

I've no direct experience here, but have read enormously on the subject of fillers, all across the board, trying to understand what to use in my Danish Rolling Block in 8X58RD caliber rifle using cast bullets with really light loads of pistol propellents in that humongous case designed for black powder.
  • The cautious authors recommend nothing but natural fillers, after they have ringed the chamber(s) of valuable old weapon(s).

There it is.

You want to use artificial stuff, who cares? Certainly not me.

I am putting this out here as a caution for the rest of the world.

Thanks for your post.

pcmacd
 

BBerguson

Official Pennsyltuckian
I haven’t tried any fillers in cases with shoulders and don’t think I will. I’ve started using poly fill in my 450bm rounds and have had perfect ignition so far with these loads. I haven’t chronographed them yet but I could tell the consistency of the sound, recoil and groups that it was working. I just annealed the hundred cases I’ve been loading and will now load them with Unique and some poly fill but will wait for my son to come from college before we shoot them.
 

todd

Well-Known Member
@pcmacd, i have shot thousands of rounds with dacron and i'm still waiting on the "ring"!!! :rofl:

read what ian has posted and heres another one
 

pcmacd

Member
@pcmacd, i have shot thousands of rounds with dacron and i'm still waiting on the "ring"!!! :rofl:

read what ian has posted and heres another one
Well, sir, it seems to me that you have been lucky.

Look it up. There are scores of documented problems with non-natural wads ringing chambers or barrels.
  • I've read a couple of dozen first person experiences over the years where this happened, as a matter of fact.

  • Some of these are documented in Handloader or Rifle magazines.

    That's likely where I got most of my information.

It's your weapon, so? Have fun, dude! Rock on!

I am not about to argue or belabor the point.

You will continue to act as you see fit, regardless of my arguments.
  • I just want this information out here for other persons to consider.

Shall we agree to disagree?
  • I'm not your daddy, so go have fun, my friend.

pcmacd
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
yep,, when you do it wrong you get negative results.
if you ain't ever used a filler or duplexed a load your probably negative towards the results you ain't ever got.
if you read and follow that big fat guy that can only buy and wear flower covered moo-moo's your probably not getting good results to begin with anyway.