Twist rate question on a 22/250

[Intheshop]

Gun;old Savage long action in 22/250,thin brrl.14 twist.....cpl hundred rounds of J stuff down the tube.4-12 Nikon,parallax set @75 yds.Free floated wood stock bedded with custom(our shop) pillars and some other in-house stock bits N pcs.

First attempt with cast .22 CF's...Rifle/scope system is fine with J words.1/2"/100 gun 'till brrl heats up,but it is a hunting rig.I just never needed the power of this case,either use one of our .223 bolts,or step up to .243/6mm bolt.So while the gun is a solid varmint killin machine it's pretty durn new.

Thats the background....my question is what FPS with a 55 g boolit is it going to take to stabilize in this 14 twist?

Early testing is showing up some minor tweaking that will get done,Gc's being slightly crooked(small boolits,fat fingers) resulting in otherwise unexplained flyers.Using the wrong top punch,will see us turning a reamer to boolit dimensions.Then start playing with top punch/bump sizing.Throw in some s"store bought" lube if our house brand ain't cuttin the muster.

Got 4759,5744,H4895,I4198,and a bunch of other usable powders.

 

[Intheshop]

Pic attempt....this is a few years ago,different scope.We were working on scope finishes....this one matches original Savage receiver,pics ain't doing justice.

 

[KHornet]

Nice clean looking rifle! Have never shoot over 50 gr cast in 22-250. Have had decent luck with 225438 (43 gr HP), and NOE (37 gr) at about up to 2000-2100 in Ruger #1, w/1-14 twist, but have shot most paper with vols in the 1700-1800 fps.

I would think that you might stabilize a 55 cast at maybe 2200+, and if I were working with your powders, think any of what you list might be good to start with. Good luck.
Paul

 

[Josh]

I have just recently shot a Lyman 225646 55 gr bullet at 1087 FPS from my 222 Remington with a 1-14 twist, there was no signs of tipping or instability. While I did shoot a group at 50 yards, I would not want to write an article for shooting times over it either, this was due to the "wrong" lube and diameter for the application. Anyway here is a picture of the group.

BTW this load is 2.5 gr of Titegroup NOT 25, my period got lost beside the 2.

 

[fiver]

you know I never tried slowing down my 22-250 with cast.
I just run it up to about 2700 fps and called it a day.
I guess you could slow it down.

I did slow down my 223 with a slower twist barrel.
not sure how slow the twist rate is I don't much care what my twist rates are I work on solutions not excuses.
11-12 grs or so of 2400 works pretty well and is about 18-1900 fps.

 

[Intheshop]

Not trying to slow it down necessarily.Was thinking because of the slow'sh twist that speeding it up was what's called for?

Josh,that helps...would've guessed they'd tip.I used to have a first year 722 w/period Weaver 10x,in .222.Sold it for vg money.It was a great rifle...only shot j words.

I'll get the chrono out tomorrow and shoot.Have been loading 7 at a time.We have several (indoor/outdoor) ranges.Been shooting at 50 outside.Using Bud bags,will use heavy rest.And post data/pics .

 

[fiver]

I have seen the hornets go pretty slow and they generally run a slower twist barrel.
I have found that the 223/22-250/220 swift all will shoot the same loads at pretty much the same velocity's especially with cast..
so I generally just look to the 223 for start data.

 

[Ian]

One thing I've learned about twist rate and stability is you never know what's going to work...or not work....until you actually load some up and go shoot them at some clean paper that's square to the shooting bench and has a good cardboard backer.

Case in point: 245 grain cast out of 12 twist .30 caliber, at 800 fps. Stable to the 100 yard berm, which is as far as I shot it. Math said no way it would work. I shoot 235 grain cast out of a ten twist rifle at 946 fps average, get 1.5" groups at 100 yards. Recently I experimented with some 220 grain .35 caliber bullets in a 16 twist carbine, down to 340 fps, groups were strung vertical but holes were round to 25 yards.

 

[KHornet]

Have often said that all of my rifles were female, and had to be treated accordingly. That said, there is no hard and fast rule regarding the realities of twist and what will shoot and what wont shoot in which rifle. As usual, I agree with what Ian wrote above. The difference between probability(printed data) and reality(what the rifle actually does) is very often very different!

 

[Intheshop]

Yeah ya'll are right....

I usually just jump in and start shooting.On this cal/rifle started reading everything on the web about it.And that's where the notion that a little slower twist allows you to run the boolit right much faster.

Snagged the cheapest mould out there,the "L" brand,haha.We've got a bunch of theirs,they work pretty durn good in handguns.My first boolits out of this new mould are pretty rough,heck the lead mix was even rough.

I annealed some cases last night.The load written on the bx was.50 g TNT with 38 g of H380.The gun shoots very well.Ideally if I can get about 2500 and 3/4-1" three shot,cold brrl groups....there hunting to be done.That's the goal.

 

[fiver]

try around 21- 22 grs of imr 4895 with the better of the boolits.

I visually cull for rejects then weight sort the good ones.
that load should put you up over 2500 fps but has been a good load area for me in a bunch of 22 cal rifles.
I settled for 22.5 in the AR rifles and in the 220 swift.
if you have the H-brand of 4895 drop the load another half grain.

 

[Brad]

not sure how slow the twist rate is I don't much care what my twist rates are I work on solutions not excuses.

Fiver, that may well be the quote of the year.

 

[KHornet]

Yah Fiver, just results!!!!!!

 

[Intheshop]

Got some shooting done.Following are the positives...

Lube was good through 2650,which was top velocities.

No leading.Barrel stayed pretty durn clean,few boogers or kernels of powder but not bad.

Only tested with IMR4198 today.There was much less blowback carbon soot on outside of cases.And they never needed trimming.Started with FL sized cases with maybe 1/2 firings.Loaded another 1/2 dz firings on these same 7 cases.

Took the 4198 from a start of 2200 fps up to 2650-2675.Got there and tried again at 2650 with primer change.Was using CCI,last batch was Federal.The latter proved noticeably better on ES.

Groups would string vertically,then go back round with bump up in powder/velocity.Happened twice,down at around 2200...then again 2600.

Run out of loaded rounds were extremely tight,measured on some pretty sophisticated equipment,less than a .001

Best groups were 3/4" @2600,Federal primers.Still have work to do,but am happy.

 

[Intheshop]

Not really negative because I was headed this way anyway?

The .224 sized,needs to be .225....and experience tells me .2255 would be better.Got to make a custom top punch alluded in previous post, a reamer which is boolit profile makes the top punch.This then, supports the nose all the way down to 1st driving band,yadayada.This same approach cut my .243 groups in half.

Obviously cast better boolits,and looking forward to it,haha.

Going to go with 4895 next,keep it around 2600.Check difference in primers,seating depth.

 

[fiver]

diameter does make a difference.
I know my 250 will take 227 pretty easily with some scuffing of the ball seat area.
226 is a glide in fit that leaves me just a little run-up before the nose hits the rifling.

it'd be pretty dang hard to walk away from 3/4" groups at that speed.
maybe tweak things one side or the other a few tenths and mess about with the alloy some.
I bet you can get down to 1/2".

 

[Ian]

Groups would string vertically,then go back round with bump up in powder/velocity.Happened twice,down at around 2200...then again 2600.

Perfect example of barrel harmonics at work and how to read it on the target. Light profile barrels are especially good at showing this. You hit two nodes there. If your rifle and other components like the powder you'll see that vertical string clear as day and just a little bump more on powder usually closes it into the best group your combination will muster. If you never see a clear vertical string during an extensive workup, ditch the powder and try a different one.

You're getting some outstanding results there, results which will mystify many people who don't understand what it takes to get great groups at high velocity. Keep up the good work and thank you for sharing, this is the GOOD STUFF!

 

[Intheshop]

Our heavy rest is really nice,a touch old school.Extremely heavy with true capstan and bronze bushed center post.

Protektor front rest bag is sized for varmint stocks.This Savage brrl AND forend are pencil thin.So not excusing anything other than my cheapness to order the right front bag.This rifle squirms a bit...but between that and some rough boolits,this is where the few flyers are coming from.

Further,what was interesting,but nothing new,this system was putting the first two shots in almost every group into one hole.Which is all I can ask for considering it's a straight up hunting rig.

What comes after load development is more of that "zero" confirmation.So it's 2 or 3 quick shots in a nice tight cloverleaf,but check this over a 2 week period.Rain or shine....no excuses,shoot a group every day.

That's also what got my crow killin .243 shooting so well.It was this day after day single group shooting.5 shot groups @100 routinely under 1/2",cold brrl.,shoot 5 as fast as you can work the bolt,staying in whatever wind condition at that time.

I don't have the patience to be a BR shooter,but have learned a lot from them on wind."If the brass ain't flyin,you're dyin".