Webley

[richhodg66]

I must admit to having a thing for top break revolvers, and I've always kind of wanted a Webley. I passed on a big .455 one a few years ago and have kicked myself since.

Anyway, one presented itself locally, kinda pricey, but it got me thinking. The shop has its caliber listed as 38-200, which if I understand correctly, the Brits loaded the .38 S&W with real heavy bullets like that, am I correct?

I actually have dies and a little brass plus a few .38 molds which drop big. Never owned a gun in it, got the stuff to make some ammo for a friend's father who let me deer hunt his place a few years ago who had a fine old S&W he carried around the farm to dispatch the occasional varmint, so I never did much else with it. He wasn't looking for real accuracy in that belly gun anyway. I'm told .38 S&W uses a slightly larger diameter bullet than the nominal .357 of the .38 Special and, unfortunately, most dies are set up for using those .357 bullets.

Is the .38 S&W a headache to load for and are there any special considerations in a Webley? I sure wouldn't hot rod it, but I don't do that even in my Ruger Blackhawks.

 

[RBHarter]

38 Short , 380 Colts New Police , 38/200 , 38 S&W , a hapless victim of " we don't want to have that other guys name on our gun" . Same cartridge just heavy bullets in the 38/200 .

Most guns have .360-.361 grooves which makes them perfect for the mould for a 9×18 Mak .
With the correct dies it's really just a fat , low pressure , rimmed 9×19 as far as loading goes .

Mom has a little H&R . All of the above is true there .

I can't remember now something like 2.5 gr of Unique is a max load under a 158 .
OAL is less than cylinder length with the big bullets as long as the front band clears .

 

[richhodg66]

My old single cavity 358311 drops about that as I recall. I think I have a small tub of them I haven't sized yet, I need to check. Sounds about perfect.

I'm no expert on Webleys. This one has a bobbed hammer, looks like intended to be shot double action only. I'd really prefer a big .45 one, but I think those just ooze old school cool.

 

[Thumbcocker]

My old single cavity 358311 drops about that as I recall. I think I have a small tub of them I haven't sized yet, I need to check. Sounds about perfect.

I'm no expert on Webleys. This one has a bobbed hammer, looks like intended to be shot double action only. I'd really prefer a big .45 one, but I think those just ooze old school cool.

Tank crews complained that the hammer got caught when they were getting in or out. Most of those are dao.

My favorite bit of Wesley lore: during the war years some were stamped "war finish". Just imagine the shame if someone thought that Webleys were normally finished like this.

 

[Bret4207]

38 S+W, or 38/200 for the Webley, can be a great little cartridge. It's massively underloaded here in the US these days, but it was never a real footstomper anyway. I have a little Smith Perfected Model. I can verify they like something at least .360, probably .castings dropping .362 wouldn't be overkill. I believe most of the US models were typically regulated for something around 145-150 grs. The 38 S+W Super Police load with the blunt 200gr bullet typically hits very high, but at the ranges it was meant to be used it wasn't a big deal. The 200 gr, about what your Webley is regulated for, lopes along at like 650 fps. The US factory loads with the 146gr don't exceed that by much in deference to the many ancient light revolvers made for it still floating around.

FWIW, at one time the 38S+W was a very viable target cartridge according to the writers and records of the day.

Al/CZ 9.3 has done quite a bit of work with the 38 S+W.

I passed on on Enfield in 38/200 and, like you, always wanted a 455 Webley. I've only ever seen one in person and it had been "customized" with a skeletonized hammer by some guy an eon ago. I wasn't able to buy it, or the 303 Ross sporter in the same collection, always regretted that.

 

[Missionary]

Last thing a crewman wants is to get snagged in the hatch when back up in there things are on fire.

 

[Rushcreek]

With the DA only operation, that sounds like an Enfield rather than a Webley. I've had two Enfield "commandos" in the past and they are good revolvers. My brother still has the second one. I used hbwc bullets in mine and a taller front sight blade to zero it.

 

[CZ93X62]

Lots and lots of work with the 38 S&W, both the 146 grain U.S commercial version (3 revolvers) and the British 38/200 version (2 revolvers).

Specific to the Webley-Enfield, my example has throats between .362" and .3625". I size the old NEI #169A bullet at .363" and load it over 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco for ~650-675 FPS in the W/E. I started 15% below those powder weights initially, and worked that up slowly. It is service-accurate, about 4" groups at 25 yards; its S&W M&P 5" counterpart (also 38/200) groups better, 2.5-2.75" at 25 yards.

38 S&W is NOT a short 38 Special--its case diameter is .007"-.008" wider, though cases do fit in 38/357 shell holders. The 38 S&W case shares its diameter with the 9mm Makarov, and that die set can be used to reload 38 S&W. RCBS also has a Cowboy die set with two expander spuds to cater to the wide throat diameter variations I have found in this caliber--.359" (Colt Police Positive x 4") to .363" (S&W M&P x 5"). That NOE #169A bullet is a curoisity, too--it is longer than the case it seats into, .810" vs. .775".

The DAO Webley-Enfield is a fun revolver to shoot and play with. With a bit of practice, HKS #10-A speedloaders work well with both the W/E and the S&W M&P revolver. The top-break revolver is significantly faster and easier to speed-load than are the usual run of swing-out-cylinder revolvers.

 

[richhodg66]

I think the dies I have for .38 S&W are Lee and I do remember I had no trouble seating .359 diameter bullets, but that's about all. My friend was looking at ammo for it (he'd go through a handfull of rounds a year) and I knew I could get dies, brass and load 100 rounds for less than what he could buy it for, so I did. Don't remember much else.

If I were to buy this or any .38 S&W revolver, I'd get those RCBS Cowboys dies and not even consider anything else. I've been so impressed by those in the calibers I have them in that anything I was only going to shoot cast in (pretty much everything) I would have a set of those if they make them and if I can afford them.

 

[358156 hp]

38 S&W was the first caliber I reloaded for, to feed an older S&W M&P Commercial "pre Model 10". I used a LEE Loader, which is still floating around here somewhere. Since I was using the LEE dipper that came with the loader, I settled on 2.1 gr Red Dot for powder, and although the revolver is long gone, I've always kept Red Dot on hand since that time, preferring it to Bullseye. .360 bullets were hard to come by back then, so I mainly loaded HB wadcutters, although I discovered that jacketed bullets would grip the rifling well enough to give me decent accuracy. The idea of bullet expansion or obturation was laughable with that combination, in fact, I discovered bullet would bounce back if I shot into a hardwood backer (like an oak tree), so I learned a lot of lessons with that combination. After a year of that, I stepped up to a Ruger Security-Six, and 357 magnum. My fate was sealed, and here I am, so many years later.

 

[Jeff H]

Does anyone remember the beefy, stainless top-break 44 Special someone had brewing sometime in the late eighties/early nineties?

I SO wanted one of those and waited and waited, but I think the only one ever made was the original prototype. It got very little press - tiny blurb toward the back of one of the gun rags - maybe G&A?

Top-breaks are COOL and I think would be a great personal defense/field gun in some of the larger, more moderate-pressure revolver rounds.

EDIT: particularly if it EJECTED the empties with some gusto.

 

[Charles Graff]

Matts Bullets casts and sells a .360 version of the original 200 grain RN Brit bullet for the 38 S&W. I load these over 2 grains of BE for my Webley 38/300. Mine is a early 1950s Singapore police pistol in primo condition. I understand the police were issued 12 rounds for the revolvers. Each years at qualifications they shot the 12 rounds and were issued 12 more. Hence these revolvers are in very good condition. The take down screw slot has a round bottom that was cut for a one Shilling coin. I just ground down. filed and polished a washer to fit. A regular screw driver will bugger up the slot pretty easy. I bought an old set of CH dies on Ebay any have no problem loading these bullets.

The revolver is quite accurate and loads of fun to shoot.

 

[Outpost75]

NOE sells a mold 363-204RN which produces a clone of the British Mk1 service bullet. A charge of 2.2 grains of Bullseye matches the 620 fps velocity of Mk1 ammunition from a 5-inch barrel.

 

[richhodg66]

Somewhere around here, I have a mold of the old Ideal 358430 Dad gave me to used when I first started loading .35 Remington. The mold was in bad shape but I managed to cast some decent bullets and they shot OK, I was young and learning. I need to look through my junk and take a look at it. I have heard that the 358430 was designed to duplicate the old British 200 grain bullet in the .38 S&W.

 

[CZ93X62]

Some kinks to be mindful of regarding 38 S&W reloading.......

The bullet sleeve in my RCBS Cowboy Die Set's seating die will pass a .362" pin gauge, but not a .363" pin gauge. The 9mm Makarov die set's seating die will pass a .367" pin gauge, so it handles the bullet seating duty while the 38 S&W seating die does the roll-crimping. This is an easy progression on a turret press, just a die adjustment to make things get along.

Shooting "fat" #358477 SWCs in the W/E and M&P result in low bullet strikes at 25 yards, about 3" lower than strikes made by the 200 grain-class bullets.

My own Lyman #358430 (195 grain) mould cavities fall free at about .3595"-.360". They are far too small to fit the Webley or the M&P. It is a wonderfully accurate bullet in 38 Special and 357 Magnum loadings, from 700-1200 FPS, but is too skinny for my 38 S&Ws. It might do OK in the Colt PP (.359" throats), but it and my S&W Regulation Police use the fat #358477 @ .361", and both of those little jewels are phenomenally accurate to 50 yards. In good revolvers, the 38 S&W shoots GREAT.

 

[Bret4207]

I have the Lyman 358430, I think the 200gr but there is a 150 gr also. They were meant for the 38 S+W. IIRC mine is "skinny". It has a blunter nose than the 204RN NOE Outpost mentioned. The Brits did tend to use a pointier bullet in their revolvers than I care for, but I doubt I'll be facing off against a hode of Mau Maus any time soon...

 

[CZ93X62]

My 202 grain Mk I .363" 38/200 bullet comes from an NEI Handtools mould that I have had for close to 20 years (#169A). Not long after we moved to Ridgecrest in July 2008, I was asked by several folks at the Olde Site to send cast samples of its products, perhaps Al at NOE got some of those sent his way. I probably sent out 100 samples to a half-dozen guys.

Seated with a roll crimp around its front drive band, the loaded cartridges just fit in my Webley-Enfield's cylinder and have some tolerance in the S&W M&P's charge holes. They do not fit in my small frame revolvers--Colt PP, S&W Regulation Police, or the Iver Johnson top-break.

As an aside, Buckshot came by today with a recent acquisition--a turn of the century blued Iver Johnson top-break in 38 S&W. It looks brand new, and as he pointed out the revolver has zero cosmetic issues from machining mistakes. Nice little revolver. OF COURSE, he shot it--he brewed up some 145 grain slugs atop 1.5 grains of Bulleye to achieve a screaming 480 FPS from the 3-1/4" barrel. He bought a reamer to work on its non-existent forcing cone--the rifling ran right up to the barrel stub end. It spat lead/grit/whatever something awful when he first shot it. After the reaming, that bad action halted.

 

[Bret4207]

Sounds familiar. My Iver Johnson 6" 32 Long had a very abrupt forcing cone, eg- pretty much none at all. I lightly reamed it, no spitting, but the sights are abysmal. Lovely, light revolver that should be about the perfect field gun, but the sight simply stink.

 

[Thumbcocker]

I have heard old guys refer to having an "Ivory Johnson" as a trapping pistol during the depression.

 

[Missionary]

Cannot write anything about their revolvers but the Iver Johnson Champion Model Trap 12 gauge is one tight shooting 50 yard shotgun.