Snake, I had a mind bender a while back. Converted BO cases, neck turned. All sized by the same die (Lee set) and then some annealed. Annealed cases took more pressure to seat bullets (all PCd and sized by same sizer). My conclusion is annealing makes smaller grain metal that thickens or shrinks - don't know which. Don't have any measuring tools capable of any difference. Should have grabbed all the mics from the house when Dad moved. Couldn't tell any difference at the target but neck tension was different.
Weight sorted cases ..
- Thread starter Michael
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Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I'm not metallurgist but worked with PhD's in our materials lab years ago. I had to refresh my memory but there are basically 3 stages to annealing. First stage (lower temp) reduces what are called dislocations in the grains which create internal stresses. As the temp increases, the unstressed grains can now reorganize which will allow them to grow. If the temp continues to rise, the grains all grow in size. Each of these stages brings a further level of "softening", with the 3rd stage resulting in the softest material.
I tend to think that when we properly anneal cases, we are only taking them thru the 1st stage which relieves the stresses caused by working the metal over and over again.
As for Popper's experience, I'm going to take a few guesses at why he experienced more pressure seating bullets in annealed cases.
Guess #1 - When the cases were annealed, the stresses were relieved, and the necks were no longer as round as they were before annealing.
Guess #2 - Being softer, the annealed cased yielded easier to the bullet, but created a tiny step below the base of the bullet that it now had to push
further down the length of the neck.
Guess #3 - When the necks were annealed the reduced stresses allowed the case diameter to decrease making for a tighter fit.
Guess #4 - If the bullet had a gas check, the softer case neck allowed the harder gas check to engrave the material, causing more drag.
I tend to think that when we properly anneal cases, we are only taking them thru the 1st stage which relieves the stresses caused by working the metal over and over again.
As for Popper's experience, I'm going to take a few guesses at why he experienced more pressure seating bullets in annealed cases.
Guess #1 - When the cases were annealed, the stresses were relieved, and the necks were no longer as round as they were before annealing.
Guess #2 - Being softer, the annealed cased yielded easier to the bullet, but created a tiny step below the base of the bullet that it now had to push
further down the length of the neck.
Guess #3 - When the necks were annealed the reduced stresses allowed the case diameter to decrease making for a tighter fit.
Guess #4 - If the bullet had a gas check, the softer case neck allowed the harder gas check to engrave the material, causing more drag.
Ian
Notorious member
My understanding is that brass has one stage and a very abrupt annealing point. I used to be under the impression that one could "draw" brass at a lower temperature and create a controlled anneal without going full soft, but I looked into it some time back and that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least the window is so narrow that it might as well be a line.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Everything I find says that all metals go thru the 3 stages, recovery, recrystallization and grain growth. That said, to your point, the time to transition from one stage to the next might be very quick depending on the temperature/metal.
Since annealing cases is a very common topic, finding good technical/engineering type articles versus how-tos and personal opinions is a bit of a struggle. But with a little perseverance I found this article. The graph tends to support your thoughts that it transitions so quickly to give the impression of being 1 stage or an on/off process. Note that the graph shows a furnace temp of 800F. For that the entire process takes roughly 1-1/2 minutes. Since many shooters use a torch, the temp is much higher and of course the metal thickness is around 0.010, which is pretty thin. Would be interesting to be able to measure the metal temp during the process. I might take some scrap cases and run them thru my annealer and measure the temp when they hit the catch tray. Being so thin and having the rest of the case as a heat sink, I would expect the neck temp to drop rapidly. So, I'd just be getting an rough indication of the temp while in the flame.
Here is the article. https://www.ampannealing.com/articl...s,see the 3 phases below in the illustration:
My homemade annealing machine runs a neck thru a propane flame for about 4 seconds +/-. I ran some thru the machine twice and had several shoulders collapse when entering the Lee collet die. I have since limited annealing cases to when I find one or two cracked. When that happens, I anneal the batch. I try to keep track of which cases get fired and which don't at a match so that they all get close to the same number of firing/reloading cycles.
Since annealing cases is a very common topic, finding good technical/engineering type articles versus how-tos and personal opinions is a bit of a struggle. But with a little perseverance I found this article. The graph tends to support your thoughts that it transitions so quickly to give the impression of being 1 stage or an on/off process. Note that the graph shows a furnace temp of 800F. For that the entire process takes roughly 1-1/2 minutes. Since many shooters use a torch, the temp is much higher and of course the metal thickness is around 0.010, which is pretty thin. Would be interesting to be able to measure the metal temp during the process. I might take some scrap cases and run them thru my annealer and measure the temp when they hit the catch tray. Being so thin and having the rest of the case as a heat sink, I would expect the neck temp to drop rapidly. So, I'd just be getting an rough indication of the temp while in the flame.
Here is the article. https://www.ampannealing.com/articl...s,see the 3 phases below in the illustration:
My homemade annealing machine runs a neck thru a propane flame for about 4 seconds +/-. I ran some thru the machine twice and had several shoulders collapse when entering the Lee collet die. I have since limited annealing cases to when I find one or two cracked. When that happens, I anneal the batch. I try to keep track of which cases get fired and which don't at a match so that they all get close to the same number of firing/reloading cycles.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
.303 Brit collect neck sizer arrived today. After monkeying with it, decided to combine the .30-06 collet with the.303B closer and mandrel to get my desired 0.002-0.003 neck tension. Mandrel measured 0.3085 and this lined up with the spec from Jerry at Lee. I trimmed 0.260 off the top of the closer and put the mixed internals into the original die body for my original .30-06 collet die. It appears that all the collet die bodies are the same and only the guts change. Put the die in my RC and started sizing necks. I got a nice 0.311+ ID. The + is a few tenths over the 0.311 with varied a bit by case. And I was measuring this with a dial caliper so some error there due to the flats on the caliper inside jaws.
I sized all 60 cases and then took a small hole gauge and took a measurement on one case. 0.3112. Left the SMG set up to that dimension and checked all the other cases for fit. Got just about the same feel for every case.
Don't have a centerfire match until next Sunday. This Sunday is a .22 silhouette match. I'm not going to burn any primers/powder doing any testing. Testing will be done via the next match. We paint targets between relays so seeing groups form is not a problem. Very curious to see if this will tighten up the groups.
As a sidenote, when we shot the 3 minute match last week, I shot a 26/30 and all my misses were with zero room to the target. 4 minute targets would have made for a perfect score. So, if going to the new neck tension does tighten up the groups, I should be able to keep all the shots on those 3 minute targets.
Last Sunday we tried something new to add a twist to the match. We thru our names in a hat and drew partners. I got a guy who is one of the best offhand shooters I've seen. But he brought 10 minute ammo to a 3 minute match. He was shooting a Hepburn in .30-30 and I could have done better with a slingshot. His loads were just not working with up to a foot difference between shots with pretty much no wind. So, I had the second highest score for the day, but we came in last because he shot a 7/30. We still had fun and coming in last with a good score allowed me to carp and berate the club president who does the match results. Made for a good pissin' and whinin' session on Wed at Charlie's Gun Shop since complaining and busting balls after the match is almost as much fun as shooting in it.
I sized all 60 cases and then took a small hole gauge and took a measurement on one case. 0.3112. Left the SMG set up to that dimension and checked all the other cases for fit. Got just about the same feel for every case.
Don't have a centerfire match until next Sunday. This Sunday is a .22 silhouette match. I'm not going to burn any primers/powder doing any testing. Testing will be done via the next match. We paint targets between relays so seeing groups form is not a problem. Very curious to see if this will tighten up the groups.
As a sidenote, when we shot the 3 minute match last week, I shot a 26/30 and all my misses were with zero room to the target. 4 minute targets would have made for a perfect score. So, if going to the new neck tension does tighten up the groups, I should be able to keep all the shots on those 3 minute targets.
Last Sunday we tried something new to add a twist to the match. We thru our names in a hat and drew partners. I got a guy who is one of the best offhand shooters I've seen. But he brought 10 minute ammo to a 3 minute match. He was shooting a Hepburn in .30-30 and I could have done better with a slingshot. His loads were just not working with up to a foot difference between shots with pretty much no wind. So, I had the second highest score for the day, but we came in last because he shot a 7/30. We still had fun and coming in last with a good score allowed me to carp and berate the club president who does the match results. Made for a good pissin' and whinin' session on Wed at Charlie's Gun Shop since complaining and busting balls after the match is almost as much fun as shooting in it.
fiver
Well-Known Member
i'm pretty firm in my belief that brass anneals at 715-F not below and anything much above that will start working on the zinc too much.
the issue with annealed brass is it tends to become gummy and sticky, giving the grabby issue if used straight from a single sizing on the case.
it needs to be slightly work hardened through some means.
whether that's through pin tumbling, sizing down then up and down again, or being run through the neck sizer a couple of times, it needs a little bit of bring back.
the issue with annealed brass is it tends to become gummy and sticky, giving the grabby issue if used straight from a single sizing on the case.
it needs to be slightly work hardened through some means.
whether that's through pin tumbling, sizing down then up and down again, or being run through the neck sizer a couple of times, it needs a little bit of bring back.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
That is why I don't anneal but stress relieve and call it good.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Yup. I tend to think that the term anneal is misused by many. I suspect many are just stress relieving which is the recovery stage.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Shot a match today with the 20x Unertl on the 03. This is my standard load of 17 gr of 2400 under an NOE 314210 (Lyman 314299). Made two changes to the load. Bumped the bullet out so it engages the rifling and with the .303 British mandrel, reduced neck tension to around 0.003.
Shot a 28/30. Targets were 3-minute discs set at 200, 300 and 400 yds. Shot sub-2-minute group at 200, about 2-minutes at 400 and a flyer ruined a 2-minute group at 300. Both misses, 1 at 300 and 1 at 400 were me, not the load.
I realize that making 2 changes kills the ability to understand the effects of each. But I'm content to conclude that they worked together to tighten up the groups. Need to put the rifle on paper with these changes if we get bump up in the temp.
Shot a 28/30. Targets were 3-minute discs set at 200, 300 and 400 yds. Shot sub-2-minute group at 200, about 2-minutes at 400 and a flyer ruined a 2-minute group at 300. Both misses, 1 at 300 and 1 at 400 were me, not the load.
I realize that making 2 changes kills the ability to understand the effects of each. But I'm content to conclude that they worked together to tighten up the groups. Need to put the rifle on paper with these changes if we get bump up in the temp.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Just a follow up. Shot what we call the "Vermont Match" last Sunday. Mild changing winds and moderately clear skies. A bit nipping. I think it was 13F when I got in the car at 7am to head to the club.
The modified load worked great again. Targets were 6" at 100, 9" at 150, 11" at 200 and 15" at 300. All round discs.
Shot some very nice, tight groups. Wind did keep us thinking. But between my spotter and the flags I made slight holding corrections to keep the shots into the same group. At 100 and 150 the groups, which are big splashing of missing paint, were all splashed touching. 100 yd group was damn close to 1 MOA. Should have taken pictures and measured.
I introduced two variables at the same time, so will never know which played how much of a role. I tend to think that the bullet touching the lands played the more significant part. But reducing my neck tension from around 0.006 to about 0.003 had to improve things as well.
Before last Sunday's match, I also refinished the stock on the 03. It came out really nice considering what I had to work with. I managed to shoot a 40/40 and was crowing loudly to my shooting partner that this was the best accuracy improvement I'd ever done to my rifle. I knew other guys on the line would hear me. When they would come over and ask me what I'd done that made such a great improvement, I told them I'd refinished the stock.
The modified load worked great again. Targets were 6" at 100, 9" at 150, 11" at 200 and 15" at 300. All round discs.
Shot some very nice, tight groups. Wind did keep us thinking. But between my spotter and the flags I made slight holding corrections to keep the shots into the same group. At 100 and 150 the groups, which are big splashing of missing paint, were all splashed touching. 100 yd group was damn close to 1 MOA. Should have taken pictures and measured.
I introduced two variables at the same time, so will never know which played how much of a role. I tend to think that the bullet touching the lands played the more significant part. But reducing my neck tension from around 0.006 to about 0.003 had to improve things as well.
Before last Sunday's match, I also refinished the stock on the 03. It came out really nice considering what I had to work with. I managed to shoot a 40/40 and was crowing loudly to my shooting partner that this was the best accuracy improvement I'd ever done to my rifle. I knew other guys on the line would hear me. When they would come over and ask me what I'd done that made such a great improvement, I told them I'd refinished the stock.
Ian
Notorious member
LOL! it was definitely the stick finish!
Great results and report, I think you have it. FWIW I strive for a consistent .0015" interference fit (tension) of the bullet and neck, and sort cartridges by feel of the press handle (or a spring gauge) when I'm striving for the best I can do.
Great results and report, I think you have it. FWIW I strive for a consistent .0015" interference fit (tension) of the bullet and neck, and sort cartridges by feel of the press handle (or a spring gauge) when I'm striving for the best I can do.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I realize that posting personal match results here gives the appearance of blowing one's own horn, but my intentions in doing this are to show that the improvements are holding steady and it does appear I've found the sweet load that the rifle likes.
Today was what we call the Silver Bullet Match. 3 MOA discs set at 200, 300 and 400. No wind and temps started in the high 30's and probably ended in the high 40's. It poured rain for my 200 yd targets. Gottem all and shot about a 1.5 MOA group. At 300 the fog came in and looking thru the 20X Unertl was akin to opening my eyes up underwater. Forget seeing misses in the dark brown dirt. I did get all 10, and most were in a pretty tight group. But there were a few flyers. 400 yds was much better. Fog lifted and both the targets and berm were crystal clear. Misses were still hard to spot as the dirt was so wet that it would not move other than to make a .30 cal hole. I put all but 1 shot into a sub MOA group on that target. And the one flyer I called. The rifle moved just as the shot broke and I just caught the target at 6 o'clock about 1 inch from the edge. I put so many shots on top of each other that my spotter could only tell that I hit it because it moved. There was no more paint in that group to blow off.
Although at the club I will continue to maintain that all the improvement was due to refinishing the stock, in reality, bumping out the bullet to engrave when I closed the bolt and dropping the bullet tension to about 0.003" was the magic recipe to turn this old girl into a laser.
I had another variable today that turned out to be a non-variable. I ran out of Bayou gas checks and sent back to Hornady checks. They are a bit longer/deeper than the Bayou. When I was finished shooting my 10 shot string on the 300 yd target, I took one of the rounds with a Hornady check and sent it downrange. It hit about 1.5 inches from the previous shot. Now I know that they really do not make enough, if any difference to worry about.
My partner on the other hand is still struggling. He had his shooting really well using the same bullet and load as I use and for some reason decided he wanted to shoot a lighter bullet. When it shoots, it shoots really well. But he gets flyers that are not just off a minute or two. They are off by a lot. I'm truly wondering about his loading accuracy. He's 86 and I suspect he might be distorting the bullets in the sizing process. He still does very well in Class F. So, it's not his skills behind a rifle deteriorating. I suspect it's something he's doing to those bullets. Or, the rifle just does not like them. But I would not expect flyers that are 1 foot away from the others to be caused by a the rifle not liking that bullet. I told him to go back to the bullet I shoot. But he's got a bug in his behind about shooting these lighter bullets. So, I guess we'll just have to figure it out.
Today was what we call the Silver Bullet Match. 3 MOA discs set at 200, 300 and 400. No wind and temps started in the high 30's and probably ended in the high 40's. It poured rain for my 200 yd targets. Gottem all and shot about a 1.5 MOA group. At 300 the fog came in and looking thru the 20X Unertl was akin to opening my eyes up underwater. Forget seeing misses in the dark brown dirt. I did get all 10, and most were in a pretty tight group. But there were a few flyers. 400 yds was much better. Fog lifted and both the targets and berm were crystal clear. Misses were still hard to spot as the dirt was so wet that it would not move other than to make a .30 cal hole. I put all but 1 shot into a sub MOA group on that target. And the one flyer I called. The rifle moved just as the shot broke and I just caught the target at 6 o'clock about 1 inch from the edge. I put so many shots on top of each other that my spotter could only tell that I hit it because it moved. There was no more paint in that group to blow off.
Although at the club I will continue to maintain that all the improvement was due to refinishing the stock, in reality, bumping out the bullet to engrave when I closed the bolt and dropping the bullet tension to about 0.003" was the magic recipe to turn this old girl into a laser.
I had another variable today that turned out to be a non-variable. I ran out of Bayou gas checks and sent back to Hornady checks. They are a bit longer/deeper than the Bayou. When I was finished shooting my 10 shot string on the 300 yd target, I took one of the rounds with a Hornady check and sent it downrange. It hit about 1.5 inches from the previous shot. Now I know that they really do not make enough, if any difference to worry about.
My partner on the other hand is still struggling. He had his shooting really well using the same bullet and load as I use and for some reason decided he wanted to shoot a lighter bullet. When it shoots, it shoots really well. But he gets flyers that are not just off a minute or two. They are off by a lot. I'm truly wondering about his loading accuracy. He's 86 and I suspect he might be distorting the bullets in the sizing process. He still does very well in Class F. So, it's not his skills behind a rifle deteriorating. I suspect it's something he's doing to those bullets. Or, the rifle just does not like them. But I would not expect flyers that are 1 foot away from the others to be caused by a the rifle not liking that bullet. I told him to go back to the bullet I shoot. But he's got a bug in his behind about shooting these lighter bullets. So, I guess we'll just have to figure it out.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I don't view it that way at all. Most matches have internet results posted, so not very many would intentionally mislead you. My feelings are that it add to the weight of your perspective of what is being discussed. "It you can really do it, it isn't bragging."
Ian
Notorious member
Absolutely! I was just about to snip the same quote and say the same thing
I really appreciate the regular updates, they are an invaluable peek into one man's steady process of finding what works, what works a little better, what doesn't work so well, and what doesn't make much difference in his particular journey. The reports being under match conditions makes them all the more valuable and relevant, thank you!
I really appreciate the regular updates, they are an invaluable peek into one man's steady process of finding what works, what works a little better, what doesn't work so well, and what doesn't make much difference in his particular journey. The reports being under match conditions makes them all the more valuable and relevant, thank you!
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I love you guys! This is truly a group with a passion for the sport rather than a passion for the image.
As a side note, I bought a Win. 52C. Always wanted one. What an amazing rifle. Testing ammo to find what it likes best. We shoot .22's out to 300 yds. Some shoot theirs out to 500 is centerfire matches. .22 is a great little caliber.
As a side note, I bought a Win. 52C. Always wanted one. What an amazing rifle. Testing ammo to find what it likes best. We shoot .22's out to 300 yds. Some shoot theirs out to 500 is centerfire matches. .22 is a great little caliber.