What a difference a die makes...........

[Winelover]

I have heard claims made that say Marlin's slow twist (1 in 38) 44 Magnum barrels are more conducive for accuracy with light for caliber bullets. I decided to find out for myself. Recently, I had Accurate Molds cut an aluminum 4 cavity for a 210 grain RF for two purposes. First, was to determine accuracy potential in the Marlin 1894 carbine at 100 yards. Second, was a lighter bullet for use in my CA Bulldog. Consequently, I had Tom cut two cavities with gas checks and two without. Since both firearms prefer oversize bullets I had the mold made to drop .434 diameter castings, which I lubed and sized to .433 with my Star. Carnuba Red is my preferred lube.

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-210EG-D.png

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-210E-D.png

Initial testing, was not supporting the light for caliber accuracy claims with the Marlin. My go to powder for Magnums is 2400.........never failed me yet. I shot ladder loads from 16 grains up to and including 21 grains, obtaining shotgun patterns for results. Nothing resembling a group. Had a discussion with Rick and he suggested I neck size the brass using RCBS carbide 44 Special Cowboy dies. I ordered a set from Midway and they showed up, midweek. I was skeptical, to say the least. Having developed reasonable (2 MOA) with heavy for caliber, oversize bullets with my 40 year old RCBS carbide dies for the Marlin. BTW, I've been using Lyman's "M" expander, with these dies.

Yesterday AM, I used the Cowboy dies and neck sized some twice fired Starline brass. Adjusted the included RCBS expander to flare and accept the .433 diameter bullet and primed with Winchester Large Pistol primers. Then proceeded to make up some ladder loads using 2400 powder. I loaded 17.0 grains, 17.5 grains and 18.0 grains with the 210 Accurate GC bullet. Bullets were seated with the new seating dies but crimped separately, using the older RCBS crimping die.

The results were nothing but amazing. Thanks Rick.




The velocity specifics of the load, measured on Lab Radar:

Average velocity 1756.49 fps.

SD of 7.29 fps.

 

[Rick]

Good write up John. Glad that worked out for you. A model 94 Marlin with cast at 100 yards, that's fine shooting for sure.

 

[Brad]

Nice shooting. The Marlin in 44 mag seems to be the picky one.
Had you tried neck sizing with your existing dies?

Listening to Rick is often a good idea.

Not gonna use that load on deer are ya? Everyone knows the 44 mag needs at least a 330 gr bullet for deer.

 

[creosote]

With that low sd, you got everything right.

 

[Winelover]

Big difference from when we shot them from the bench, a couple of weeks, ago.

BTW, that was at five power with my 1.25 x 5 Leupold German #4 reticle.

 

[Winelover]

With that low sd, you got everything right.

Had very low SD's with the shotgun patterns, also.......so it had to be the dies reloading technique.

 

[Brad]

Goes to show that low SD alone doesn't matter much.

 

[Rick]

Been my experience that a low E.S./S.D. will never guarantee small groups but good groups with a high

E.S./S.D. will rarely repeat. ​

 

[Rick]

Had you tried neck sizing with your existing dies?

His Carbide sizer was way over sizing the brass and made even worse by his .433" bullets.

 

[JSH]

I have had a couple of pistol cartridge rigs that responded very well to neck sizing. Proof is on the paper.

 

[Winelover]

Not planning on using that bullet for deer. My go to bullet was the NOE 265 RF but have not happy with tracking results. This Spring I've been working with the Marlin and HP's. Rick lent me his RCBS 300 SWC mould, modified by Eric to drop a GC HP's. I got that shooting at @ 2MOA, so that's my current deer load, for the near future. The only problem is I normally take my deer with archery equipment. By the time gun season rolls around, I'm very selective. In the five years I'm lived in Arkansas I only took two deer with centerfires.

 

[creosote]

So the cowboy dies are different, not just a larger expander.
My rcbs carbide die- inside diameter is .446, and my old non carbide is .450.

 

[Rick]

The Cowboy sizer die will size the brass less for a larger cast bullet. We can thank the Cowboy Action Shooters for RCBS coming out with these dies. Conventional Carbide dies are intended for and dimensioned for jacketed bullets and most in my experience size too much even for the jacketed loads.

 

[Wasalmonslayer]

WOW!!
That’s an incredible difference. It’s amazing what small changes can do...
I found that out with my 30-30.
I switched from full length to just neck size and my groups shrunk by over half.
These are the small tricks that make huge differences.

I am always amazed at the huge amount of knowledge this place offers up to help out!

 

[Ben]

small tricks that make huge differences.

You bet......I couldn't have said it better.

Ben

 

[358156 hp]

I once had a S&W 629 with .434 throats. It was a miserable project, seemingly doomed to a life of (expensive!) jacketed bullets. This was in the days before RCBS Cowboy dies. I tried three different die sets without success, and even resorted to a custom mould from Accurate, and using a gutted LEE Factory Crimp die as a sizing die to quit oversizing the brass. Even an old set of Hornady steel dies weren't accommodating my needs. My final issue was the crimping stage. ALL of my crimping dies were too tight, and the bullet would be sized down/ damaged by the crimping shoulder in the die. I ended up buying a LEE collet style crimping die to get around this issue. They had just been introduced at that point, and I had to order mine directly from LEE since none of the distributors had them yet. This did finally work, and my leading issues all went away, and the revolver was turned out to finally be nicely accurate in the end. John has already sorted his issues out, but perhaps this little bit of background will help somebody else along the way. Nowdays we can start with the Cowboy dies, and that'll probably nip the issue in the bud. And the offending 629? I sold it about a year later. It irritated me to have a gun that required spoon feeding just to hit the target. The loaded ammo for the 629 wouldn't even chamber in my Redhawks.

 

[Brad]

I may well be investing in some RCBS cowboy dies for 44 mag. I am quite certain that my current Hornady carbide sizer is way over sizing my brass.

 

[Rick]

I may well be investing in some RCBS cowboy dies for 44 mag. I am quite certain that my current Hornady carbide sizer is way over sizing my brass.

Hhmmm . . . I think that was suggested some time ago. That I'm aware of they don't make 44m Cowboy dies but if Brad gets the 44 spl Cowboy dies and neck sizes Brad will be a happy camper.

 

[358156 hp]

Hhmmm . . . I think that was suggested some time ago.

 

[Brad]

The seater on my Hornady was an issue when I got over .432. The bullets got sized down when crimping but they also stuck in the die. Hornady uses a sliding sleeve for alignment and that sleeve was the issue. I made a new one thst now allows up to a .435 bullet.
I also made a new crimp die as the existing ones all seemed to size down the bullet a little. New one doesn't touch the case except on the case mouth to crimp it.