What is "Heavy Naphthenic Hydrotreated Distillate" and....
- Thread starter Harry O-1
- Start date
They are a polycyclic oil as opposed to paraffinic oils that are straight chains.
They have good solvent effect but are also subject to oxidation over time.
I think Ian did some work with napthenic oils in a few lubes and got not so great results. Hopefully he will chime in and say more.
I can say this for certain, you don't really know until you try something. Some things that seem so promising are utter failures and stuff that just shouldn't work sometimes does.
Start with small amounts, too much oil is often a bad thing.
They have good solvent effect but are also subject to oxidation over time.
I think Ian did some work with napthenic oils in a few lubes and got not so great results. Hopefully he will chime in and say more.
I can say this for certain, you don't really know until you try something. Some things that seem so promising are utter failures and stuff that just shouldn't work sometimes does.
Start with small amounts, too much oil is often a bad thing.
Looking further I find that hydro treated oils mean the base oil was "cracked" giving a semi-synthetic oil with better properties. Things like low temp performance are better. In a naphthenic oil with a low VI this also increases the VI. Viscosity index, VI, is a measure of how viscosity changes with temp. Higher is better in general. A low VI oil, like a non hydro treated naphthenic, is far more viscous at lower temps than it is at higher temps. Could lead to some low temp issues in a lube.
A bigger potential issue for us is the oxidation potential of napthenic oils. How this is altered by hydro treating I don't know. I do know an oil that can oxidize easily might lead to changes with time in our lube. Oxidation of the oil could lead to substances that cause gumming or even a change in physical feel of the lube, it could be dryer or crumbly.
Do you have a specific product in mind? If it is a lubricant of any sort Ian will scope out the particulars. He is sort of an oil junkie.
That all said the very fact I even know this stuff scares me. I need to go wash my brain, it has a bad case of the "wench monkeys".
A bigger potential issue for us is the oxidation potential of napthenic oils. How this is altered by hydro treating I don't know. I do know an oil that can oxidize easily might lead to changes with time in our lube. Oxidation of the oil could lead to substances that cause gumming or even a change in physical feel of the lube, it could be dryer or crumbly.
Do you have a specific product in mind? If it is a lubricant of any sort Ian will scope out the particulars. He is sort of an oil junkie.
That all said the very fact I even know this stuff scares me. I need to go wash my brain, it has a bad case of the "wench monkeys".
Yes, I have a specific example in mind. I had a bunch of NRA 50/50 lube I had been using. It worked great for higher velocity handgun loads (.357 Magnum, etc), but poor for low velocity loads (under 800fps). I ended up using SPG lube for them. I was happy with that, except it is prone to melt on hot summer days. Then I began thinking about reducing the viscosity of the NRA lube without reducing the melting point (for mid-velocity loads). I had a bunch of tins of high-temperature pipe-thread lube (for steam pipes) that I inherited from my father. It looks, smells, and feels like ordinary, soft automotive grease but melts at a higher temperature.
I melted some of the steam-pipe lube (it was fairly difficult with a double boiler, but it eventually melted) and then mixed in the NRA lube. From what I have read, the steam-pipe lube melts at 260 degrees F. I now have a lube that is softer (less viscosity) than the original lube, but doesn't seem to melt at a lower temperature (I had no problems with it this summer).
I am putting it on .38 Special bullets in low-end Plus-P loads, what I consider mid-range velocities. It is more accurate than the same load with straight NRA lube. I have been using it for a year now and have been happy with it. I have also been thinking of making it even softer to replace my SPG lubes. My first attempt at making this I overshot and it was too soft, but I was able to stiffen it up enough for mid-range loads.
I looked at the MSDS papers for the steam-pipe lube, but the only thing I got was that it was a "Heavy Naphthenic Hydrotreated Distillate". I would like to know more about it.
I melted some of the steam-pipe lube (it was fairly difficult with a double boiler, but it eventually melted) and then mixed in the NRA lube. From what I have read, the steam-pipe lube melts at 260 degrees F. I now have a lube that is softer (less viscosity) than the original lube, but doesn't seem to melt at a lower temperature (I had no problems with it this summer).
I am putting it on .38 Special bullets in low-end Plus-P loads, what I consider mid-range velocities. It is more accurate than the same load with straight NRA lube. I have been using it for a year now and have been happy with it. I have also been thinking of making it even softer to replace my SPG lubes. My first attempt at making this I overshot and it was too soft, but I was able to stiffen it up enough for mid-range loads.
I looked at the MSDS papers for the steam-pipe lube, but the only thing I got was that it was a "Heavy Naphthenic Hydrotreated Distillate". I would like to know more about it.
Ian
Notorious member
Sounds like the valve packing grease that Bruce381 sent me to test, it was heavy dinosaur oil, bentonite, castor bean oil, and some waxes.
Napthenic, cyclic, branched oils always seemed to act pretty "slick" in a gun barrel. Whether the oil has had the microcrystalline waxes cracked out of it or not is pretty much irrelevant for bullet lube purposes.
Here's what I'm basing that off of: Comparison of two kinds of transmission assembly lubricant, where the one composed of "petroleum distillates, heavy, paraffinic, solvent dewaxed" shot pretty well in several different lube formulations while one composed of "petroleum distillates, heavy napthenic, solvent dewaxed and petroleum distillates, heavy napthenic, hydrotreated" had a bad tendency to cold-start and purge. Also, comparisons between GL-1 paraffin gear oil, pharmacy-grade laxative mineral oil, and GL-5 napthenic gear oils and several engine oils showed the same trends in that straight-chain paraffin oils leave a more consistent bore. Why that is, I don't know.
Napthenic, cyclic, branched oils always seemed to act pretty "slick" in a gun barrel. Whether the oil has had the microcrystalline waxes cracked out of it or not is pretty much irrelevant for bullet lube purposes.
Here's what I'm basing that off of: Comparison of two kinds of transmission assembly lubricant, where the one composed of "petroleum distillates, heavy, paraffinic, solvent dewaxed" shot pretty well in several different lube formulations while one composed of "petroleum distillates, heavy napthenic, solvent dewaxed and petroleum distillates, heavy napthenic, hydrotreated" had a bad tendency to cold-start and purge. Also, comparisons between GL-1 paraffin gear oil, pharmacy-grade laxative mineral oil, and GL-5 napthenic gear oils and several engine oils showed the same trends in that straight-chain paraffin oils leave a more consistent bore. Why that is, I don't know.
It is a petroleum fraction heavier (i.e. less volatile) than gasoline and diesel, up around kerosene I believe. As discussed above, the "hydrotreated" means it has been "cracked" (high temperatures, catalyst, steam), to break down some of the "heavies" (i.e. asphalts) and make more valuable products (e.g. solvents, fuels, etc.). Basically it is a cheap, non-polar, low volatility hydrocarbon solvent.
Product: http://www.gunk.ca/CAT_GR1.asp
MSDS Sheet: http://www.chemcas.com/msds112/cas/3190/64742-52-5.asp
I am not sure about the oxidation or any other kind of degradation with the Heat-Pruf grease. Some of the tins were from the 1950's. The newest ones were from the 1980's. There appeared to be no difference between them. I used the oldest ones first. I have one tin left, but more can be bought if needed.
I also have a bunch of Tamarack NRA 50/50 lube from the 1960's or 1970's. I have been using them since the mid 1980's. Again, I see no degradation in them either. It wasn't until the early 2000's that I started wondering if the lube could be improved. It looked to me that to get best accuracy, viscosity and velocity were related (perhaps acceleration is a more correct word than velocity). The softer (lower viscosity) lube was better with low velocity (or lower acceleration) loads. Harder (higher viscosity) lube was better with high velocity (or higher acceleration) loads. The problem I was having with softer lubes is that they also have lower melting points. Not good in the summer around here.
I am very pleased with the mix of Heat-Pruf grease and NRA 50/50 lube for mid-range handgun velocities (800-1,100fps). Group sizes are 1/4 to 1/3 smaller than they were with straight NRA 50/50 lube. Now, I am just wondering if I can expand the range of velocities that this mix can be used with.
MSDS Sheet: http://www.chemcas.com/msds112/cas/3190/64742-52-5.asp
I am not sure about the oxidation or any other kind of degradation with the Heat-Pruf grease. Some of the tins were from the 1950's. The newest ones were from the 1980's. There appeared to be no difference between them. I used the oldest ones first. I have one tin left, but more can be bought if needed.
I also have a bunch of Tamarack NRA 50/50 lube from the 1960's or 1970's. I have been using them since the mid 1980's. Again, I see no degradation in them either. It wasn't until the early 2000's that I started wondering if the lube could be improved. It looked to me that to get best accuracy, viscosity and velocity were related (perhaps acceleration is a more correct word than velocity). The softer (lower viscosity) lube was better with low velocity (or lower acceleration) loads. Harder (higher viscosity) lube was better with high velocity (or higher acceleration) loads. The problem I was having with softer lubes is that they also have lower melting points. Not good in the summer around here.
I am very pleased with the mix of Heat-Pruf grease and NRA 50/50 lube for mid-range handgun velocities (800-1,100fps). Group sizes are 1/4 to 1/3 smaller than they were with straight NRA 50/50 lube. Now, I am just wondering if I can expand the range of velocities that this mix can be used with.
Ian
Notorious member
I don't think so, Brad, even though Vaseline is the usual recommendation for softening a lube to make it shoot better with few to no side-effects. The pipe thread grease would be just like any common wheel bearing grease and have a much higher heat tolerance than Vaseline. In other words, it would make the lube softer without lowering its net melting point very much. Lithium chassis grease could accomplish much the same thing, IF one could get lithium soap to play nice with Alox.
Higher melt point is a good thing.
Wonder how that grease would do as a middle modifier? Even if it is Ca based it would let us soften wax without excessive lowering of melt point. Add a splash of castor oil as a lube and add a microwax/beeswax carrier.
Dammit, I gotta stop thinking about this stuff. I have many lubes I never even tried. Aaaaarrrrggggghhhhhhh
Wonder how that grease would do as a middle modifier? Even if it is Ca based it would let us soften wax without excessive lowering of melt point. Add a splash of castor oil as a lube and add a microwax/beeswax carrier.
Dammit, I gotta stop thinking about this stuff. I have many lubes I never even tried. Aaaaarrrrggggghhhhhhh