JonB
Halcyon member
I wouldn't say better. I guess it's depends on how you define better? ...and what the application is.
What is Lyman #2 like as an alloy?
- Thread starter Canuck Bob
- Start date
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
What Jon says , I used to use lino when a friend who had a huge printing bussiness used to drop off several hundred pounds of bars in the spring when they didn't need them to add weight to the back of the cars. I tried about 50 pounds of commercial # 2, great stuff expensive, very easy to cast with, a bit hard for me but worked great in my .30 cals , when they sold the bussiness and my supply dried up, I went to wheel weights, found them to work well all around, for hand guns and rifles. now that they are gone I use 3-3-94 in my rifles, haven't had to cast for hand guns 'cause I still have thousands of bullets from my run & gun days,although I still cast a few 45 Colt 250'S with ww . . To sum up I still think #2 is too hard , it makes a great bullet, but I prefer something around 12 BN
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
I'll jump on the bandwagon and shout the praises of Lyman #2 AKA 90/5/5 alloy. It has wonderful castability at fairly low temps, it behaves very well at 675* and there is no better alloy for casting smaller-bore Loverin bullets like #225438 and #245496.
I don't give a rat's derriere about relative cost of tin, I won't live forever. I have a lot of 92/6/2 alloy laying around, and have begun sweetening those melts by adding enough tin to create 90/6/4 out of it. It behaves like #2, just wants 700-725 degrees to do it.
I don't give a rat's derriere about relative cost of tin, I won't live forever. I have a lot of 92/6/2 alloy laying around, and have begun sweetening those melts by adding enough tin to create 90/6/4 out of it. It behaves like #2, just wants 700-725 degrees to do it.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Years ago I used a little Lyman #2 just to see what it was all about. I came to the same conclusion as quicksylver and others, Lyman #2 is too hard for non-magnum handgun bullets. Now, as an alloy for rifle bullets and maybe some magnum handgun bullets? That may be closer to its calling.
I was reloading for years before I ever got involved in casting. When I started casting, it was for cap & ball revolvers and soft lead was the name of the game. As my casting activities grew into cartridge loadings, I needed harder alloys but rarely as hard as Lyman #2.
For rifle bullets, particually the smaller bores as CZ93x62 mentions - Yes, that's where harder alloys shine.
Lyman #2 has its place and some people think it is a pretty universal alloy but I'm not in that camp. I think it's too hard for plain base handgun bullets and the bigger (slower) rifle bores. Like a lot of things in our hobby, you have to match the tool to the job.
I was reloading for years before I ever got involved in casting. When I started casting, it was for cap & ball revolvers and soft lead was the name of the game. As my casting activities grew into cartridge loadings, I needed harder alloys but rarely as hard as Lyman #2.
For rifle bullets, particually the smaller bores as CZ93x62 mentions - Yes, that's where harder alloys shine.
Lyman #2 has its place and some people think it is a pretty universal alloy but I'm not in that camp. I think it's too hard for plain base handgun bullets and the bigger (slower) rifle bores. Like a lot of things in our hobby, you have to match the tool to the job.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Ians sig line reads "It's not how you do it, it's the way you do it."
This has never been more true than when mixing alloys. Keiths preferred 1:16 alloy runs around 11 bhn according to the alloy calculator and is a simple 2 part alloy as you know. Alloys are developed to meet specific needs, and for a 357 mag lever gun or revolver you will want to look closely at terminal performance where hunting deer is involved. 357 mag is a bit light for deer, but you can stack the odds in your favor a bit with alloy selection. I've seen you get a lot of advice to use a harder bullet for deer, here's why.
A cast bullet kills game as a feature of its design, coupled with it's penetration in game. Softer bullets deform quicker and easier because the strength just isn't there for bullet integrity. A harder bullet will penetrate deeper with far less deformation than a softer one. I'd prefer a full diameter hole completely through a deer to the chance of a bullet that can't penetrate because it has expended too much energy in deformation, think of a parachute opening. The effect is similar enough in this instance, the bullet enlarges and generates a larger surface area which slows its progress. This is okay if you're starting out with a heavy bullet at much higher speed but decreases the all essential penetration. On the other side, too hard of an alloy could fragment.
You mention not wanting to "dick" around with a little of this, and a little of that, but that is how it works. At this point I'd suggest contacting Rotometals https://www.rotometals.com/bullet-casting-alloys/ and buying #2 alloy so you don't have to do this. #2 alloy also heat-treats well if you want to experiment with that as well. I see Rotometals has #2 alloy on sale right now too. https://www.rotometals.com/lyman-2-bullet-metal-5-pound-ingot-90-lead-5-tin-5-antimony/
Buy enough for a couple of pots full if you can swing it, and save the soft stuff for practice and plinking.
This has never been more true than when mixing alloys. Keiths preferred 1:16 alloy runs around 11 bhn according to the alloy calculator and is a simple 2 part alloy as you know. Alloys are developed to meet specific needs, and for a 357 mag lever gun or revolver you will want to look closely at terminal performance where hunting deer is involved. 357 mag is a bit light for deer, but you can stack the odds in your favor a bit with alloy selection. I've seen you get a lot of advice to use a harder bullet for deer, here's why.
A cast bullet kills game as a feature of its design, coupled with it's penetration in game. Softer bullets deform quicker and easier because the strength just isn't there for bullet integrity. A harder bullet will penetrate deeper with far less deformation than a softer one. I'd prefer a full diameter hole completely through a deer to the chance of a bullet that can't penetrate because it has expended too much energy in deformation, think of a parachute opening. The effect is similar enough in this instance, the bullet enlarges and generates a larger surface area which slows its progress. This is okay if you're starting out with a heavy bullet at much higher speed but decreases the all essential penetration. On the other side, too hard of an alloy could fragment.
You mention not wanting to "dick" around with a little of this, and a little of that, but that is how it works. At this point I'd suggest contacting Rotometals https://www.rotometals.com/bullet-casting-alloys/ and buying #2 alloy so you don't have to do this. #2 alloy also heat-treats well if you want to experiment with that as well. I see Rotometals has #2 alloy on sale right now too. https://www.rotometals.com/lyman-2-bullet-metal-5-pound-ingot-90-lead-5-tin-5-antimony/
Buy enough for a couple of pots full if you can swing it, and save the soft stuff for practice and plinking.
Excess tin or antimony tend create layers (globs) or fingers of the metal in the alloy, in a fractured way. Balancing the 2 will prevent that. After many yrs, tin separates and alloy becomes 'softer'. Adding copper locks up the antimony in a large molecule, increasing toughness (resistance to shear/breakage) BHN actually measures surface toughness (shear resistance) of the crystalline structure of our alloys. Lead is like a layer of ping-pong balls with other layers above and below. Those layers slide across each other - malleability. Putting 'tennis balls' in the layers reduces the ability to slide. CuSb5 is a 'tennis ball' and doesn't deteriorate like tin.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Popper, May I use some of your terminology? When I talk about crystalline matrix of bi- and tri- metallic alloys, peoples eyes seem to glaze over. Your "layers" and ping-pong" balls may make it easier to understand. Ric
johnnyjr
Well-Known Member
I have never had any problem harvesting a deer with my 357 Rossi with a gas check bullet of 11/12 bhn..
RBHarter
West Central AR
357 . Choose a bullet design with square corners on the nose .
I don't remember where I read it but square SWC disrupted more tissue than those with rounded features. I took that idea and processed it to it's simplest form , a WC wrecks more tissue than an RN at the same impact speed . Shoot and see revealed that you have to have a little tail heavy or it.wanders . Lee calls the 358-158 an RNFP lots of people would call it an Ogival WC . Square edges on about a .280 nose , no shoulder so no cut to relive the shock wave ........or.something close to that .
I don't remember where I read it but square SWC disrupted more tissue than those with rounded features. I took that idea and processed it to it's simplest form , a WC wrecks more tissue than an RN at the same impact speed . Shoot and see revealed that you have to have a little tail heavy or it.wanders . Lee calls the 358-158 an RNFP lots of people would call it an Ogival WC . Square edges on about a .280 nose , no shoulder so no cut to relive the shock wave ........or.something close to that .
fiver
Well-Known Member
the flat point disrupts tissue as it pushes it's way through, it also causes much more radial permanent wounding.
a round nose just glides it's way through tissue like a poly wog in a stream.
in a rifle a big flat nose can be detrimental because it works too good above a certain velocity.
it causes too much disruption to the flesh and to the bullet too quickly.
great if your shooting rock chucks off the neighbors hay field, not so great if you plan on eating any of the meat.
a round nose just glides it's way through tissue like a poly wog in a stream.
in a rifle a big flat nose can be detrimental because it works too good above a certain velocity.
it causes too much disruption to the flesh and to the bullet too quickly.
great if your shooting rock chucks off the neighbors hay field, not so great if you plan on eating any of the meat.
fiver
Well-Known Member
yep, and sometimes in the direction the bullet come from.
we have to be careful with our parameters when we use a non contained core.
heck we have to be careful about speed when using a copper wrapped type bullet.
i've worked over sierra jackets to be pretty close to the original and then kept making steps to 'improve' them.
bonding [not really a huge improvement on performance, it just sticks the two together and sometimes helps when things ain't so perfect]
hardening the core [this helps quite a bit, but again it's velocity dependent on which direction]
changing the amount of exposed lead at the nose [this also helps since it can delay, and slightly minimize expansion]
adding a canellure can help control expansion and retaining the core too.
that of course seems to be off course from a cast bullet.
but if you look deeper you'll see the similarities.
alloy strength, nose design/diameter, velocity,,, it's all there, it's always there.
we have to be careful with our parameters when we use a non contained core.
heck we have to be careful about speed when using a copper wrapped type bullet.
i've worked over sierra jackets to be pretty close to the original and then kept making steps to 'improve' them.
bonding [not really a huge improvement on performance, it just sticks the two together and sometimes helps when things ain't so perfect]
hardening the core [this helps quite a bit, but again it's velocity dependent on which direction]
changing the amount of exposed lead at the nose [this also helps since it can delay, and slightly minimize expansion]
adding a canellure can help control expansion and retaining the core too.
that of course seems to be off course from a cast bullet.
but if you look deeper you'll see the similarities.
alloy strength, nose design/diameter, velocity,,, it's all there, it's always there.
Bazoo
Active Member
I've never cast with #2 alloy. I appreciate this discussion. I do have about a pots worth of #2 with a small amount of copper added. I am thinking of cutting it 50/50 with soft to be closer to the WW alloy I normally use, and to make it go farther. It probably will be just right for my 30-30.
Post Script, I run the aforementioned WW alloy + a nip of tin at full speed / pressure in my 30-30. The bullet is a 31141 lubed with gas check.
Post Script, I run the aforementioned WW alloy + a nip of tin at full speed / pressure in my 30-30. The bullet is a 31141 lubed with gas check.
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Mitty38
Well-Known Member
I was using a home made concoction 90lead/3tin/6antimony /1% other as it was assay tested. So kinda In the area of Hard Ball and Lyman#2.
Cast a small bullet real pretty, and consistent.
With my .223 flat based 61 grain Elvis mould. No issue at all with leading out of an AR-15. Powder coated. Using H335.
I am all for going a tad softer then Lyman 2, as it has worked well for 22 caliber, but not anything I have tried larger. Or at least had any advantage over a slightly softer mix.
I have used it in the 450 Bushmaster, but found it not so accurate.
Then on a whim, I just mixed some of it 4 to 1.With 20/1. To soften it up a bit.
Powder coated or checked and lubed, those seam the cats meow unquenched for my 450 bush master.
Cast a small bullet real pretty, and consistent.
With my .223 flat based 61 grain Elvis mould. No issue at all with leading out of an AR-15. Powder coated. Using H335.
I am all for going a tad softer then Lyman 2, as it has worked well for 22 caliber, but not anything I have tried larger. Or at least had any advantage over a slightly softer mix.
I have used it in the 450 Bushmaster, but found it not so accurate.
Then on a whim, I just mixed some of it 4 to 1.With 20/1. To soften it up a bit.
Powder coated or checked and lubed, those seam the cats meow unquenched for my 450 bush master.
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Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
When I started casting (1960) Lyman 2 was the standard rifle alloy and was fine for magnum revolver loads. I mixed, cast and shot many thousands of bullets of this alloy. I was completely satisfied with the results. later, I used a mix of 50-50 sheet lead to linotype for about the same hardness.