When do you think common folk will be able to buy primes again?

[Rockydoc]

I wonder if the shortage/ high prices of primers and powder we are seeing is only for us handloaders. Are the ammo manufacturers seeing the same prices and shortages. (The economy of scale will affect the price difference between what manufacturers pay and what we pay but there is parallel of relativity.)

 

[Winelover]

This current primer situation was created, plain and simple, by the current administration. Just pulled my last primer invoice from Powder Valley. Case (5000) of SPP ran me $159.95 ($28 a brick) delivered on 11/13/2018............during the last administration. Hazmat fee was a mere $19.95, freight was zero as well as tax.

Inflation has nothing to do with these inflated higher prices. IMO. It's all due to greed. My pension and SS didn't go up, yet I can still afford to buy primers. I refuse to yield and will hold firm. I seen the writing on the wall and didn't get caught with my pants down.

Plenty of ammo out there. I get daily emails from Bud's and almost as many from Natchez for ammo sales. It may come down to it may be cheaper to buy than reload ammunition.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

This current primer situation was created, plain and simple, by the current administration. Just pulled my last primer invoice from Powder Valley. Case (5000) of SPP ran me $159.95 ($28 a brick) delivered on 11/13/2018............during the last administration. Hazmat fee was a mere $19.95, freight was zero as well as tax.

Inflation has nothing to do with these inflated higher prices. IMO. It's all due to greed. My pension and SS didn't go up, yet I can still afford to buy primers. I refuse to yield and will hold firm. I seen the writing on the wall and didn't get caught with my pants down. .......

Inflation may not be a huge factor between 2018 prices and 2022 prices, but it does have some impact. Even during that 4-year span, the buying power of the dollar has decreased. Over 40 years, inflation has a significant impact. 1982 dollars were a LOT different than 2022 dollars. But I think it's fair to say the even 2018 dollars had more buying power than 2022 dollars.


I cannot attribute the label of greed to someone selling a product at a price the market will bear. Nor do I look at the last retailer in a chain of suppliers as the evil guy. If he is marking up his products because he has people lined up with cash in their hands willing to pay that price, then he's just a savvy businessman. If he is selling a product at a high price because he had to pay a high price to obtain it, then he is still a good businessman.

 

[dannyd]

Just go 2 thousand from Brownells and have ordered 2 thousand just about everytime they had primers. I was stocked up before all this happened. But I shoot about 12,000 rounds a year and I never go above the number allowed by the fire code 20,000. This is only hobby I have, so looking at the guy down the street with the boat with the inboard motors I'm getting off easy.

 

[Jeff H]

.....It may come down to it may be cheaper to buy than reload ammunition.

OH! No, no, no, no, NO!

That will just not do!

Even if someone supplied me with FREE factory-loaded ammo to shoot in my guns, I wouldn't get near the satisfaction I currently derive from shooting. Growing up, I was obviously "conditioned," because then, and to this day, when I see empty ammo boxes and empty cases lying around, my first though is that whoever used that up wasn't a very serious or dedicated shooter. This is one of the factors which contribute to my indifference to shooting rim-fires - it's just not as enjoyable as shooting what I put together myself.

It just occurred to me that someone once DID supply me with a bunch of free factory ammo - several hundred Federal FMJ 223 rounds. Over the course of a few years, I've broken those down, tossed the bullets in my "to-be-smelted-bucket," dumped the unknown powder and re-neck-sized the cases in a neutered (de-capping pin removed) LEE collet neck-sizing die and loaded them with what I wanted to shoot - which is cast and not available from any factory.

That's me though and I'm probably not "normal.

 

[Jeff H]

...I cannot attribute the label of greed to someone selling a product at a price the market will bear.....

All the same, I'm not the steadfast brand-loyalist to CCI primers I once was either. So, there's a long-term cost to the cruel objectivity of what the market will bear. Whether it carries enough weight in terms of "consequences is questionable. I've discovered that in MY loads, the primer makes little to no difference whatsoever, because I have now bought several other brands and tried them. Once I do buy primers again, assuming they become "affordable" again, I'll buy from whomever is selling them the cheapest. I don't know if my personal mindset reflects that of others, but it's not hard to imagine others forgoing superstition about primers' attributes and special powers and just buying the cheapest ones available. I think a large part of the current market isn't as interested in much more than something going "bang" and kicking up dirt on the backstop as "we" are, so there's a driver right there.

This is not retaliation or vindication. I figure if hand-loaders are a dispensable market sector to manufacturers, then "loyalty" is a frivolous and unwise indulgence on our part. I believe that our reloading component (and tooling) manufacturers have gotten a lot of mileage out of brand loyalty for a lot of years. I'm not sure it will be there for them when this bubble bursts. Maybe it will matter. Maybe it won't.

This is not meant to be a counterpoint to your post, but merely a tangent thought which was spawned as a result.

Yours is solid logic, objective. No argument here. Just thinking about how all this has change MY way of thinking about what I buy and from whom. As our small segment of the primer market is affected by such objectivity, we will likely begin to think in similarly objective terms.

 

[todd]

You cannot compare prices in 1980's dollars with prices today in 2020's dollars.
The very first step is to adjust the numbers for the VALUE of the dollar. The buying power of a dollar is not static.

Inflation (in simple terms the buying power of a dollar) accounts for some of the differences in price over the years. It doesn't account for all of the increase but it is an important first step to compare apples to apples over 40 years.

i was just going thru some old good memories, but i ain't going to pay $100or more/1000 primers. i'm dumb, but i ain't that dumb.

someday it will settle down to around $40-50 for 1000 primers and 1 lb of powder. altho if it were up to me, i'd say that 1960s prices would be fair....lol.

I cannot attribute the label of greed to someone selling a product at a price the market will bear. Nor do I look at the last retailer in a chain of suppliers as the evil guy. If he is marking up his products because he has people lined up with cash in their hands willing to pay that price, then he's just a savvy businessman. If he is selling a product at a high price because he had to pay a high price to obtain it, then he is still a good businessman.

i call it greed, i don't care if you say savvy or not . greedy businessmen and greedy customers. i don't care if everybody can make buck or two, but ........i don't know, it just amazes me that there are stupid people that are willing to pay their ("businessmen") stupid prices.

 

[Brad]

Guys, let’s keep the politics out of this.

Want to discuss economics, fine. Want to discuss political parties and how they may, or may not, push certain economic policies and I am not gonna leave it.

I am asking the mods to keep an eye on this thread and if gets political it will be closed.

 

[dannyd]

I shoot to be able to reload and cast bullets; if I had to use only store purchased ammunition I would never shoot again and just go fishing.

 

[fiver]

but then you gotta buy sinkers.

 

[dannyd]

but then you gotta buy sinkers.

I cast those too. You can use almost any lead except I don't use lead from batteries. It's Florida I walk less than 15 minutes and be fishing or running from a Gator.

 

[Jeff H]

You guys are scaring me.

I don't fish.

 

[Rick H]

Primer interchangeability:

When I started reloading it was gospel that one used magnum primers with ball powders. CCI were the most widely available primers in my area so when I used WW-748 in my .308W I used CCI 250 mag. LR primers. When I began loading for 7x30 Waters I developed loads using the same powder and primers. A couple of years ago I got in a hurry and used standard CCI-200 primers to load 40 rounds of 7x30 Waters. When I discovered my error I decided to test what difference it made. I fired both loads at side by side targets through the chronograph and there was no difference at all. NONE, same velocity, same accuracy. These were warm full power loads. An intentional test with my 308 showed similar results. Any velocity difference was within the SD of either load and both primers shot into the same group at 100 yds.

I am not sure I would switch from standard to mag primers with a maximum load without backing off and checking first. With standard 38 special loads I have used Winchester, Alcan, Fiocci, CCI and Federal primers. I can't tell any difference in practical accuracy (what I can hold) or reliability. I have carefully developed loads for my 7mm RemMag and 6mmRem that are pushing maximum (the 7RemMag way over current published maximums) and I won't deviate from what I know works without cutting back and working up again if I changed anything.

I am convinced that I can use any suitably sized primer to develop workable loads with minimal issues. I'm not near as anal about primers as I once was.

 

[Winelover]

Inflation is one thing but not an explanation for prices of one product rising nearly four times in cost over four years.

 

[L Ross]

You guys are scaring me.

I don't fish.

 

[Bret4207]

Inflation is one thing but not an explanation for prices of one product rising nearly four times in cost over four years.

That's supply and demand. Our first computer cost $2800.00 1997 dollars. We had to order it out of a catalog, on the phone, pay shipping, insurance, etc. 4 years later it was so outdated it was almost worthless. I can go online now and get one with 100X the power/memory for under $250.00, free shipping. OTOH, a share for a JD plow that used to cost $11.00 costs over $85.00 now last I checked. A $100.00 tractor tire in 2000 now costs $450.00+. It's not all inflation. It's supply, demand, etc. I'll give you the ultimate example- chicken wings!!! Used to they were the part that was ground up for dog food. When they first became somewhat of a "thing", I could get 100 ready to eat from a local restaurant for around $18.00. Now they're pushing $1.50 each!!! The demand is high, there are still only 2 wings on a bird, so the supply is limited. Even 3 years ago the good ones from our local pizza shop were about 50 cents each!

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Inflation is one thing but not an explanation for prices of one product rising nearly four times in cost over four years.

I'm not claiming inflation is the only factor in higher prices but, it is one factor. It is also a factor you cannot disregard.

Nor am I claiming inflation is the major factor in the recent price increases of primers. The largest factor there is market pressure from high demand. Inflation only accounts for a small portion of the recent increase in the price of primers.

However, you cannot compare 1980's prices to 2020's prices without adjusting for inflation. You either have to correct everything to 1980's dollars or 2020's dollars, you can't use the raw numbers.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

To build on what Jeff H & Rick H wrote,

I concur, within the same class, primers are very similar, regardless of brand.

A small pistol primer is a small pistol primer. Yes, some may be easier to set off (Federal) and some may be harder (CCI) but the actual performance is identical. Or so close to identical it doesn't matter.
Brand loyalty is a bit misplaced loyalty.

 

[Winelover]

Current situation...........brand loyalty goes out the window.

 

[Jeff H]

That's supply and demand. Our first computer cost $2800.00 1997 dollars. We had to order it out of a catalog, on the phone, pay shipping, insurance, etc. 4 years later it was so outdated it was almost worthless. I can go online now and get one with 100X the power/memory for under $250.00, free shipping. OTOH, a share for a JD plow that used to cost $11.00 costs over $85.00 now last I checked. A $100.00 tractor tire in 2000 now costs $450.00+. It's not all inflation. It's supply, demand, etc. I'll give you the ultimate example- chicken wings!!! Used to they were the part that was ground up for dog food. When they first became somewhat of a "thing", I could get 100 ready to eat from a local restaurant for around $18.00. Now they're pushing $1.50 each!!! The demand is high, there are still only 2 wings on a bird, so the supply is limited. Even 3 years ago the good ones from our local pizza shop were about 50 cents each!

To add to this, there is also the concept of "economies of scale," the sense of which assumes that the more you make of something, the cheaper you can make it. Computers (laptops, tablets, phones, "chips," in general, are all made by machines today - somewhere else and in VAST quantities, so there are a number of reasons a computer today is so much cheaper than one in the nineties.

Computers have regressed some too, being emasculated

However, if you do not accommodate a large increase in production, but rather over-tax your resources too much for too long, it will bite you. Paying overtime doesn't dig into the margin as much as managers would have you believe either. You are typically not going to see commensurate increase in benefits, like health care, vacation, etc.

COMPETITION is absent in all this as well. If there are no (and there aren't) competitors ramping up production also, you have the market cornered and THAT is NOT "capitalism" in the sense which a lot of people use the term in this context. I'm not talking about ideas expressed here, but this forum is a small percentage of a small percentage of the market in question. Anyway, a total lack of competition is not letting the market "self-level" or "seek balance" naturally. Whether this is by design or bad luck doesn't matter - it is what it is.

Ol' Adam Smith's invisible hand" is shackled to a wall in a basement.... somewhere. This market is being controlled unnaturally, so many of the common concepts and theories of capitalism or "good business" simply do not apply in a traditional sense, which is a clue that something is actually wrong.

Not that letting the free market do what it will (laissez-faire economy) but that is is being prevented from doing what it will.