Which Reticle?

[smokeywolf]

Starting to toy with the notion of getting a M1A. The thought has been stirring in the back of my head for nearly a year. My enablers here on A&S of BC (especially Rick) got me thinking about it.

Yes, I want one, but I also have three sons who will someday divvy up Dad's guns and reloading equipment.
The older of the two teens has a particular interest in shooting paper or silhouettes out to 500 yds. and beyond. Don't have the rifle yet and I'm already starting to look at scopes.

I can see this rifle being used for target work and harvesting meat.

The two scopes that seem most versatile and appropriate for both activities are, the Burris Veracity 2-10 x 42 @ $600 and the Sightron S-TAC 2.5-17.5 X 56 @ $930. I've no doubt that the Sightron is a better made scope with better glass.
The Burris comes with only one choice on the reticle and it looks pretty good to me.
The Sightron is available sporting one of three different reticles. Here they are: http://www.opticsplanet.com/sightron-s-tac-2-5-17-5x56-riflescope.html

Having built lenses for motion picture cameras, printers and projectors, quality optics carries pretty high importance for me but, the $330 difference can be used to buy moulds, dies and brass. Don't have anything chambered in 308. YET.

The question I have is, if I buy the Sightron, which reticle will be most advantageous for targets out to maybe 1,000 yds, and harvesting meat which would almost certainly be inside 200 yds.

Never had sufficient need or justification for a scope, so I've never researched this.

 

[Cherokee]

I have no long range experience but I would think the choice is between MOA or MIL graduation. Hopefully someone that has shoot really long range will chime in with an informed opinion.

 

[smokeywolf]

Thanks Cherokee, that is kind of my main question. However, being a neophyte with regard to scope selection, I'm still not sure if there's more questions I should be asking.

 

[Cherokee]

Like I said, no real experience; I've seen/heard discussions on some TV shows ( about LR shooting) about the math involved for MOA vs MIL and making scope adjustments. So, I would guess some research might be in order to see what the details are.

 

[freebullet]

I've had zero issues with the few Burris I have. Good workin scope.

I run a Zeiss conquest 6-20x50mm on the lr308 20" rifle with a z1000 reticle & side focus. If I'm fortunate enough to have a son, I'd be happy to pass it down. I can't say enough good about it. The z1000 is made for 308. It works. The scope is crystal clear & enhances my daytime vision. I can see by moonlight quite a ways through it. Hands down my best scope. Got this as a refurb with full warranty from cameralandny $400 under retail, which puts it a couple hundred under the sightron.

The conquest is one of very few that I can use 300+yds in fast fading light at higher magnification levels.

On the 16" lr308 she has a Zeiss terra 4-12x42mm with a z800 reticle. Very clear, lightweight, fits the carbine well. Got that one from eBay as an open box item with full warranty for 2/3rd retail. Surprisingly, when it shipped it came from opticsplanet but, that isn't their username on eBay.

The moral be that I don't view my heavy repeaters as a good place to skimp on glass. That don't mean I'm not guna look for a deal but, that it will be for something nice.

 

[freebullet]

Thanks Cherokee, that is kind of my main question. However, being a neophyte with regard to scope selection, I'm still not sure if there's more questions I should be asking.

The spec I look at
Exit pupil- often overlooked. If that gets below 5 the high magnification ain't guna work in fading light.

 

[RBHarter]

I've fired 243 through 06' to 700 and 500 yd with a simple duplex type occasionally noted as a 30-30 reticle . Most of them cover about .5-1 MOA . For deliberate target work there are better choices .

One optic I don't see suggested anymore is the Shepard . I'd think with so many folks happy to drop $6-1,200 on glass that a cal/cartridge specific ranging scope would be popular ......

 

[Ian]

I'll add a few things.

Get a 30mm tube, period. Two reasons for that: Bullet drop and scope-to-barrel alignment. The barrel, scope mount, and receiver can all point different directions and the tolerances usually seem to stack due to the Murphy factor. Depending on the bedding and amount of action/barrel bow, the POI can be quite a way off from scope center and you'll need the adjustment.

The disadvantage of a 30mm tube is the scope will sit about a tenth of an inch higher than a 1" tube in the rings, and it's very difficult to find affordable LOW 30mm rings. Since your scope mount options are limited and none of them that I know of really come in a form that adds MOA, you need the adjustment range. With a 1" tube you can get a good set of Burris posi-line rings and get the scope pre-aligned in the mount, but likely you'll not have enough overall adjustment even then to go from 100 to 1000 yards unless you use the offset rings to put the scope adjustment near the end of the elevation range at 100 and give nearly the full range for dialing up.

I don't use a drop reticle for long range or wind, instead I find it easier to dial in the dope. That means get a "tactical" scope with big knobs with clear, external markings you can see from behind the butt and positive detents you can hear and feel clearly. Having a zero STOP adjustment (not just resetable turrets) is the only way to go when dialing in your glass. If you want to use hashmarks on the glass instead, that's fine but it's a heck of a lot easier for me to just crank the knobs and aim for a bullseye. You can go back to a 200-yard zero with a zero stop set and start over if you lose count of clicks.

Ok, scope mounts. They're all going to be high for the M1A. The ARMS #18 is pretty low, puts a 40mm bell dang near on the handguard with a 1" tube and low rings, but it jams brass like crazy and can bend the op rod. Fixes supposedly exist involving ejector tuning (altering the plunger bevel) but I found a better option after a LOT of searching. There's a little company called CASM, in Canada, that makes the only M1A mount worth having IMO. Actually they make a couple of different ones, and they WORK. They also save a lot of weight by being simple, small, aluminum, and they replace a few ounces of rear sight parts that you won't be needing anyway. Another advantage is they don't suffer from the windage twisting and cant that the goofy two-point side mounts do, you won't strip the receiver screw threads, and it will never jam up the bolt on a case head.

Scoping an M1A ruins the ergonomics of the fantastic stock form, which is unfortunate, but that's the price to pay for putting optics on one. Note in my video the layers of gaff tape and polypropylene foam I used to build up the comb, and it's still too low for the scope height because I only have medium 30mm rings, and I got the CASM mount which has the 200-yard regulated backup peep sight in the back, which adds a little height to the 1913 rail to be able to see under the cross bolts of the scope rings.

Lastly, on the rifle itself, I recommend the Springfield Armory National Match with the 22" barrel. It's a couple hundred more than the base model, but changing the barrel is an expensive, major operation on one of these and I think it's worth the upgrade. I like the synthetic stocks only because they eliminate the steel bedding block and are a lot more stable and consistent than wood. Buy one and shoot the wee out of it, you and your boys will have a ball.

 

[fiver]

I would spend more time researching M-14 scope mounts.
I'm not a Burris fan I have had too many of their products let me down.

as far as reticles go I would,,, well,, I would decide if I was gonna hunt with it, or if I was gonna shoot more targets with it and maybe hunt with it.
I like a fairly heavy reticle for big game hunting.
I want to see it in the shadows, or against the shadows and especially if I am aiming up hill and the sun is in that general direction. [the coatings and depth of the glass in the objective helps here]
a heavy duplex with a finer inner cross wire is acceptable.

whereas for ground squirrels or fine target work I want a cross wire I can see but not one that blots out a 1" circle at 200 yds.

 

[KHornet]

Ought to be a whole whoop of opinions on this one.

Paul

 

[quicksylver]

Ought to be a whole whoop of opinions on this one.

Paul

There you go....even I the former scope critic have one...

IMOHO..there are two scope categories, Hunting and Target..they are separated by reticle types...my favorite reticle for target work is the fine cross hair with dot...
I don't hunt but my choice if I did would be the medium Duplex....or if it was for use in our neck of the woods with short ranges ,the lost and forgotten cross hair and post in low power mode..2-7 or 9x

For combining the two uses...I would save up and put the original scope on it ($1,100.00, BUT IT WOUILD BE WORTH $1,100.00 AFTER I USED IT)....$2,500.00 is what I am looking at for the complete package, nice part is that after I got tired of it that's what it would sell for...

All good info above but the M1A with an original sniper scope is in an entirely different category than other target and hunting rifles....(market wise) and one with GI parts is even more so....Dan

 

[smokeywolf]

as far as reticles go I would,,, well,, I would decide if I was gonna hunt with it, or if I was gonna shoot more targets with it and maybe hunt with it.

It will undoubtedly see more target shooting than meat shooting.

Dan, I do lean more toward your point of view as far as keeping old milsurps original. The '03, and the Krag will never see a modification while I'm still breathing. This however, would not be an original milsurp.

 

[300BLK]

Possibly the best kept secret in tactical rifle scopes are those sold by SWFA. Originally made for US military contracts by Tasco back in the early '90s (?) SWFA bought the rights to the scopes when Tasco's QC went to hell. I was hesitant, but bought a 6x after trying a friend's 10x. I've since bought a 10x and he a 6x and then another 6x. My 6x has 155-160 minutes of elevation and the adjustments are dead nuts repeatable. Mine 6x isn't/wasn't listed as HD glass, but I've spotted my own misses at 1000 yards (dirt behind silhouettes) shooting 30-06 with cast bullets. I think the 10x has 125-130 minutes (not spec, but by actual adjustment). I run a 20MOA tipped rail, and Burris Signature Zee rings with the posi-lign inserts tipped another +/- 10.

https://swfa.com/optics/riflescopes.html?brand=SWFA SS

 

[Ian]

SWFA fixed six is what sits on top of my M1A. Outstanding glass.

 

[quicksylver]

It will undoubtedly see more target shooting than meat shooting.

Dan, I do lean more toward your point of view as far as keeping old milsurps original. The '03, and the Krag will never see a modification while I'm still breathing. This however, would not be an original milsurp.

Smokey.. I wasn't suggesting an original mil surp..or that you need one...guess my point was ..IF you could find a commercial Springfield someone has put mil parts in..all the better..If you could find and afford and original scope..your investment would be more secure..if you are inclined to purchase a factory heavy barrel and put a commercial scope on it..PISSA..and I would still be jealous...just had one rebound..here ....one made up about 20 yrs ago by our brilliant local Military gunsmith...finally got up for sale one afternoon ...one of the other guys was there and snapped it up..$2,500.00 ...scope, scope case etc..he kept it for about 2 weeks until the same guy released an 03a4...I claimed first bids on the M1A if he decided to part with it...but the original seller gave him his money back in trade..'cause he wanted the scope back..

Your original question was about reticles...again Target dots are my favorite...must be something to it as they always go for more used than the other reticles...

 

[300BLK]

I have no long range experience but I would think the choice is between MOA or MIL graduation. Hopefully someone that has shoot really long range will chime in with an informed opinion.

I suppose its how you think, or were trained. MOA is just "minutes of angle", so thinking "inches" is close enough. Mildot spacing equates to 3.6 MOA, and those scopes with adjustments in milrads are .36 MOA rather than the 1/4 MOA typically seen on MOA scopes. If your spotter is calling MOA, then MOA is easier, if calling mils, mils are easier. If you have a milrad scope and he's calling MOA, you have to do the math. My 6x SWFA has mildots but turrets graduated in MOA. I recalling seeing a splash in the dirt at 1000 yards, compared my reticle to the aiming point, 3 mildots different, and then cranked in 11MOA windage. Close enough!

 

[quicksylver]

Am I wrong in saying that they only work with a specific load..?

 

[300BLK]

Am I wrong in saying that they only work with a specific load..?

Yes. The hash marks on mildot scopes are spaced 3.6MOA apart. 3.6MOA is 36" at 1000 yards regardless of what you're shooting. .

Conversely, "BDC" reticles are generally spaced for a particular cartridge. BDC reticles are not to be confused with BDC dials as were installed on Bushnell scopes back in the '80s, and some newer scopes that offer custom dials.

 

[Ian]

BDC reticles are very handy, IF they match your ballistics. Nikon makes custom turrets for not much money, and I think you get one free custom one if you buy certain new scopes and register with them.

 

[freebullet]

Am I wrong in saying that they only work with a specific load..?

Yeah, they are made with a given set of ballistics in mind but, they're more versatile than that.

What I do is-
sight in with the highest shooting load. Then all other loads fall below that on the picket. You simply record the pinpoints for each load. More compatible with multiple loadings imo.

It makes for extremely fast shooting at different yardages, with no holdover, clicking, or guesses.

I have one zero(that never moves) but, impact points for 4 loads in the same gun recorded. The major caveat be that ballistic reticles require the gun to be level or in the same postion to work & be accurate.

The z1000 is made for 308 with 175gr at full speed.