WTB 25-20 moulds and brass

[Glaciers]

I'm look for 25-20 brass, new or used I'm not fussy just cheap. If you have a mould in under 85 gr, flat point that's gathering dust and rust let me know. looking to get a nice little Remington 25 pump going. Went to buy factory ammo the other day and I forgot to bring my Banker with me. Man you need a 2nd mortgage on your house to buy a box.
Thanks John

 

[fiver]

that ain't no kidding. [at least they come 50 to a box at that price and not 20 like the 348 win]

if worse comes to worse I have heard guys are having good luck re-sizing starlines 32-20 brass down.

this somewhat confuses me because the 32 and the 25 have different rim thicknesses. [the 25 is thicker by like the depth of the caliber stamping] and both rounds headspace on the rim.
anyway,,, that option is there.

 

[Glaciers]

Yeah I would prefer to have the correct head stamp. Just a quirk, well I dislike reforming cases as well. Buffalo Arms offers reformed Starline but they never have any. I'll definitely go for resizing 32-20's before paying $86 for a box of 50 Remington ammo.
Just thought I'd see if somebody would come to their senses and decided to unload all their 25-20 stuff as I'm certainly willing to help them out, by taking it off their hands. Just trying to be helpful.

 

[hporter]

I have been sending in requests to Starline Brass for years, begging them to do a run of 25-20. I honestly believe if they would even do a single run of 25-20 brass, it would sell out over night. I would certainly purchase at least 1,000 myself.

Good luck finding the head stamped brass at an affordable price.

I broke down a few years ago and spent the crazy money that is being asked for 25-20 head stamped brass, but where I shoot most often, it is easy to lose the brass in the pasture. So it pains me to lose the head stamped cases, and instead I just use my re-sized 32-20 Starline brass most of the time.

I can keep track of the spent brass with my Savage 23 bolt action, but all bets are off when having fun with the Marlin 1894. I suspect the same might be true for your Remington pump. By the way, I am very jealous as I would love to have one of those Remington pumps myself.

I have seen a few molds on the auction site in the past few months that weren't too crazy in price. I have a Lyman and a NOE mold sitting in the dark together. I keep hoping that they might multiply one of these days...

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I really like these calibers 22H. 218 Bee and the 25&32/20's. I unfortunately sold off my 218 & 25/20 Marlin Levers. I have a Savage 23 in 25/20 and Contender & Winchester in BEE. I did keep my 32/20 Marlin!!

I have a couple good 25 molds. If ya need Id gladly send ya some for the postage if ya need or just wanna try John. PM me.

My NOE is out on load just now but I have the Lyman.

CW

 

[Glaciers]

Hporter, well I'm envious of your Savage and I understand the desire for the sevet little Remington. I've wanted one for years, finally traded my way into this one. Just a good clean shooter. If I ever run across a Marlin in 218, 25-20, or 32-20 I'll have to grab it up. Not a lot of small bore fun guns up here. Everything runs more on the big bore side rather the small game stuff.

Hporter, CW, this same guy I traded for the Remington has a real clean Savage 23 in 22 Hornet and a small Martini in 357 mag that's as cute as a button. Yeah strange description. But a friend of mine now deceased, a Gun Smith who was old school built that Martini. I had a Westley Richards rook rifle built on a small Martini action. Beautiful rifle. I had talked to Lee about Reboring this rook rifle to 357 mag or 357 max. The max may have been to long. Anyway my interest was started up because Lee told me about this Martini he built for a guy in 357. Well Lee was building a 50 Alaskan for me when he was struck down by cancer. It took me a year to get my rifle back from the estate and I just sold the Westley Richards. Lee and I used to meet up to share tables at gun shows and such even though he lived about 300 miles southeast of me. He was a good friend and a good Smith.

Well the 357 Martini my friend has is the rifle that Lee had built. My friend got it from the guy Lee had originally built it for. Now my quest is to try prying that Hornet and that Martini out of my friends hands. It's going to cost. I'm just going to have to try to figure out what I have in my safe he would want.

It seems we are enjoying same classic rifles. I'll throw in since I mentioned that rook rifle that never should have disappeared, I also had a Winchester model 43 in 218 Bee. Tack driver.
CW thanks for the offer of the loan. I'll keep it in mind, but first let me see what I can dig up. Got a couple of other feelers out there, so maybe I'll get lucky.

 

[hporter]

John,

Funny that you mentioned a Savage 23 in 22 Hornet, because that is on my wish list too. I have another Savage 23 in 32-20, and have wanted to add the Hornet to the family.

In the dark days of the last presidential administration, when 22's were hard to find, I bought a Ruger American compact in .223 to serve as my inexpensive plinker. I picked up a couple .22 molds to develop my plinker ammo, but work was always too busy to allow it. And though the Ruger is a nice light and handy rifle, I still yearn for the blued metal and wood stocked 22 hornet.

An honest, working man's gun like the Savage 23 has always drawn my attention. There is something special about a well made tool, one that is not ornate or fancy in any way - but get's the job done. This may have something to do with my Uncle's 722 Remington that I first hunted deer with as a kid. I fell in love with the simple beauty and handiness of that rifle.

I hope you can secure the Martini and the Hornet. Especially with the connection of the Martini back to your good friend. Those are the best rifles, the ones with a story to tell.

 

[Glaciers]

Hporter the 23 is a unique rifle as the action and barrel are of one piece. I'm certainly a wood and blue steel guy, especially gloss blue, matte blue is okay if you can't get a rifle with a gloss finish. I have a couple of stainless rifles, there okay, but just work guns, not............... Well I might take that back, the Winchester Featherweight in stainless with a maple stock. They complement each other.
So many rifles, so little money.

 

[CZ93X62]

Those of us with active 25/20 WCF rifles (Marlins 27-S and 1894CL) may be obliged to reform 32/20 cases at some point. I have what is likely an adequate supply of brass for my needs, but I would like to hear about tooling and methods for this reformation, if those doing so wouldn't mind sharing their info.

I saw a few years ago that a GREAT jacketed bullet for the 25/20--the Speer 75 grain flatnose--went off-catalog. I think Hornady still offers their 60 grain FP, but they are not widely distributed. It is definitely a caster's caliber, but even the mould designs are few and far between. Lyman still lists their #257420, which shoots well for me to 1800 FPS+. It has become my most-fired bullet in this caliber, and mine in 92/6/2 tip the scales at 74 grains with check in place and unlubed.

#257312 is the classic bullet for 25/20, 86 grain FNGC. This one is SUPERBLY accurate at the BP speed of 1450 FPS, but accuracy goes to h--l past 1600 FPS. It doesn't "range" as well as #420 does, either. That 75 grain bullet weight mid-point in this caliber is kind of magical. I have whacked a bunch of jackrabbits and ground squirrels to 125-150 yards with #420 over the years.

One more mould I have on hand is the RCBS 25-85-CB, a plain-based 85 grain FP meant for CAS work. It is a superb game bullet for edible critters when launched from 1100-1400 FPS. I mean to try this design with the non-toxic alloy for varminting later this summer. Accuracy in 92/6/2 falls apart entirely once 1400 FPS is exceeded, in both rifles' Ballard-form bores. I also have some 30/1 examples cast in this design, which I will try at the 1000-1100 FPS ZIP Code. The 22 From H--l.

 

[Glaciers]

The friend I picked up the Remington 25 from, had a Marlin 27s, but it was worn out rough. Needed the mag tube and the inner tube, both are cracked and just plan worn out. If I had that then I was thinking the rest could be delt with. Bore was rough, but didn't bother with the bore till other issues could be repaired. I'm sure the bore could be serviceable.
I just picked up a box of Hornady 60 gr bullets, so there out there.
I'm hoping that 32-20's can be formed just by running through the 25-20 FL die. Well I'm hoping anyway... I have a box of Remington 86 grain factory loads I'm wanting to use and then reload with the Hornady 60's. Maybe I'll contact Buffalo Arms and see about ordering the reformed 32-20 to 25-20's they have listed. If it's not to long of a wait I'll do that.
I was eyeballing that RCBS CB 85 gr as a good one. But I think your right CZ, that 75 grains or so would be about right.

 

[hporter]

CZ93x62,

It has been 5 or more years ago since I last formed 25-20 brass from Starline 32-20 cases, so I couldn't trust my memory enough to describe the procedure I used. The best I recall, I used a method I read about on the other cast bullet website using my RCBS Cowboy dies. I messed up a few cases before I figured it out. After that it went smoothly.

If you don't mind sharing, I would be interested in the details for your load using the RCBS 25-85-CB bullets. I just went out to the garage and looked into my .25 bullet bin and found two bags of those bullets I bought from Western Bullet company to try before buying the mold. And the bags were still sealed, so I guess I never got around to the trying them out part...

I had to go out the garage because I thought I had one Lyman mold and one NOE mold. But it turns out both my .25 caliber molds are NOE versions. I have their 63 grain flat nose plain base and the 86 grain flat nose gas checked versions. I don't think I have ever shot them on paper, we normally shoot steel targets. But I can attest that they are minute of ping in my Marlin. I will have to grab one of my chronographs and a proper target stand the next time out. This thread has given me the itch to shoot some 25-20's.

And I meant to tell John to hang in there for the brass. Good luck does shine through some times. My good shooting buddy ran into these last week.



I guess they were worth the $20 he had to pay to get them.

They are just empty brass in the original boxes. He had me holding my breath thinking they were loaded rounds for a minute. Now I have to figure out what I can use to beg, barter or plead for these.

 

[Ole_270]

I use the heck out of a 1906 made Marlin m94 25-20 that is a family heirloom. It had a liner put in the barrel, but the guy turned down a 25-06 barrel for the liner so the twist rate is faster than most. Used the Lyman 257420 gc bullet for years, but have gone to a NOE 260283 mold with plain base at just under 1300 fps with 4198 to take it easy on the old gun. Wonderfully accurate with a William's 5-D reciever sight and fiber optic front to help out a set of fading eyes. I've got a few hundred Remington cases I've been using for years, this light load doesn't seem to be very hard on them. I have converted some Starline 32-20 cases, but they sit on the shelf waiting on the Remingtons to give up the ghost.
Too bad more people haven't found out how useful and enjoyable the old cartridge is for general plinking and woodswalking use. Sure would like to see it and the guns off it make a comeback.

 

[Glaciers]

Yeah Hporter I will come across some 25-20 brass, it always works out. Just can't sit around waiting for them to find me.
I gave all my 32-20 once fired brass about 8 or 10 years ago to a friend because I was feed up with the 32-20. Don't ask. But I thought I'd give Norm a call and see if I can get a 100 cases from him. Tell your buddy I'give him $30 for his old used, worn out brass.

 

[Glaciers]

Good info guys. Feel free to share your loads on this thread. I'm taking notes.

 

[Ole_270]

The old Marlin above has had several powders tried and prefers 4198(either flavor) whether running fast or slow. It really favors fast. For several years I loaded the 257420gc over 13 gr 4198 for just over 2000 FPS in the 24” barrel. Later switched to a 80 gr gc bullet from a group buy mold over 12 gr 4198. Finally decided the old rifle would last longer with milder loads. Bought the NOE 260283 mold mentioned above as a plain based bullet and settled on 9.2 gr 4198 for 1285 FPS. Great small game load.

 

[CZ93X62]

For the RCBS bullet (#25-85-CB).......I used the Ross Seyfried blackpowder equivalency formula with IMR-4198 to arrive at the usual 1400-1450 FPS of that era. It states that you take the nominal blackpowder charge weight (20.0 grains) and multiply that by 0.4. 20 x 0.4 = 8.0 This 8.0 grain load produced ~1300 FPS and shot pretty well. With the PROPER PRIMERS FOR THIS CALIBER--Remington #6-1/2--this kinda-slow-for-application powder burned fairly clean. I cannot over-emphasize the uptick in consistency and accuracy you get from the #6-1/2 primers in these small rifle calibers. IMR-4198 has done some really good work in this caliber--11.0-12.0 grains underneath those Speer 75 FPs really shot well for me. It does similar work at those weights with Lyman #257420 (12.0 grains) and #257312 (11.0 grains).

Some other data on the 25/20 is found in a 3/91 edition of the Hercules "Reloader's Guide" (pp. 44). The 86 grain Remington exemplar got 1340 FPS from 8.0 grains of 2400 (18,300 CUP) and 1460 FPS from 11.5 grains of RL-7. CCI 400 primers were used here, which IME are significantly hotter than the Rem 6-1/2s. Both of these loads worked decently with "420" and "312", though mild. Both loads shotgunned the RCBS plain base, but 7.0 x 2400 restored order to the world and 6.0 grains is my 1100 FPS load.

And now--more ancient history for your edification, this from the Winchester "Reloading Components Manual" dated 1995, pp. 41. 3 bullets are listed, and one powder is used--WW-680. That gives a clue as to the era we are examining. No primer characteristics are listed. 60 grain "OPE" shows 13.0 grains of fuel for 2300 FPS and 26K CUP. 86 grain "Lead" lists 11.1 grains for 1895 FPS and 25.5K CUP. 86 grain SP has 11.0 grains for 1800 FPS and 23.5K CUP. Dunno if I would run these in older slide-action rifles, I don't in my 27-S. Win 92 or Marlin 94 should be fine, though. Some kind of rifle primer is indicated IMO, for cup strength at least. Maybe small pistol magnum. The Rem 6-1/2s were so instantly better in several calibers for me I stopped messing around with anything else 10 years ago+. WW-680 runs pretty close to the now-available AA-1680, according to those who know both fuels.

Brass life can really suck in 25/20 chambers. My 1990s-made 1894CL is "chambered long", with a shoulder ahead of where SAAMI claims it should reside. This is a feature of these late 80's-early 90s rifles, and they are not alone in that regard. Care should be taken to not set the shoulder back significantly during the resizing process. I handle this in one of two ways--partial full-length sizing in the F/L size die, or neck sizing with a 25 ACP sizing die. I set the decapping rod at the proper depth to kick out the spent primer while sizing the upper 2/3 of the case neck. The 32/20 has similar chamber poetry, so I would assume that 218 Bees share that personality trait. You can figure on having rifle-specific lots of brass if you own more than one of these creatures.

Other fun factoids......some throats in these calibers don't get along with some bullets, especially leverguns. The bullets' front drive bands collide prematurely with the abrupt leades present in these rifles. You CAN do the right and proper thing, and have the throat and leade relieved and tapered like a self-respecting modern bolt rifle would do.......but what fun is that, being proper and meticulous? NO, BY THUNDER--trim that brass back to ~1.275"-1.290" like a respectable rimmed magnum revolver cartridge does and carry on. You choose.

 

[fiver]

680 is a great powder in the 25-20 for jacketed use.
the horn 60's are also awesome for smaller game up to coyotes within 100~yds.
[probably the most perfect rifle and bullet combination ever for that errant turkey too]

I swapped over to AA-1680 when I got down to my last few oz's of the 680 I have, and it is one of those you really can't tell you swapped deals.
when I went to cast bullets I went with a 72gr. plain base Rapine mold and used AA-1680 data but swapped in AA's 2230 and went to a small rifle magnum primer.
I'd have to double check the numbers but 11-12grs. comes to mind.

 

[Glaciers]

Certainly good information. I just happen to have 3 pounds of 680 on the shelf I've been wondering what to do with. I originally picked it up for the 44 mag. Used a about a 1/3 of one jug, but, did not work as well as I had hoped. Went back to 2400. Using 10 to 11 grains per of the 680, I'm set for a while.
I don't need to hot rod this sweet little rifle, 65 to 85 grain slugs moving at moderate velocity would be fun. If speed is called for I've got a 223 or sweet 6 x 47 on a small Sako. Yeah I have a Remington model 12, 141, now a model 25, like the pumps.
Thanks for the input.
John

Edit, I do have my eye open for a 14 1/2 in 44-40, wouldn't mind adding one to the Remington family. Until then I have a Colt Lighting that fits in nicely.