gutshot_again
New Member
In addition, I believe it was Lyman's 358318 that was designed for the 35 Winchester - but the nose shape is the same as 358315. The nose profile of the 358009 is much more blunt than either of them.
35 Whelan
- Thread starter longhunter
- Start date
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
You are correct, I mix those to up. The 358315 is 210g ish and the '318 250 ish. While the '09 is closer to 280g and a bore rider. (All alloy dependent)
I (countless) casters have and continue to use COWW @ 1700/1800fps ish on game with excellent preformance.
Im thinking a couple things may be in place.
Your Velocity was not what you thought and or your alloy is not what you think.
I like a large flat meplat better myself and feel it offers better results on game. But the hardness of the bullet and its impact velocity are equal parts of this trilogy.
CW
I (countless) casters have and continue to use COWW @ 1700/1800fps ish on game with excellent preformance.
Im thinking a couple things may be in place.
Your Velocity was not what you thought and or your alloy is not what you think.
I like a large flat meplat better myself and feel it offers better results on game. But the hardness of the bullet and its impact velocity are equal parts of this trilogy.
CW
fiver
Well-Known Member
the impact velocity and the meplat diameter effect the outcome more than the alloy.
i use a Saeco 245gr [#248 i think] bullet with a meplat about the diameter of a dull pencil.
it's wound up to full jacketed velocity with slightly cut WW alloy.... and water dropped.
you'd think varmint bullet,, but no, it needs that speed.
if i were to use something like the Lyman/LEE 200 i'd for sure drop the speed down to about 2-K max.
i use a Saeco 245gr [#248 i think] bullet with a meplat about the diameter of a dull pencil.
it's wound up to full jacketed velocity with slightly cut WW alloy.... and water dropped.
you'd think varmint bullet,, but no, it needs that speed.
if i were to use something like the Lyman/LEE 200 i'd for sure drop the speed down to about 2-K max.
gutshot_again
New Member
I couldn't agree more.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
Respectfully, That's just not a true statement.
Casting a bullet of say, linotype, quenched, or even Babbit. Is going to be a pencil hole, possibly break apart on large heavy solids but be only slightly different with a flat point versus round nose.
I'm not at all saying that round nose is as good as a flat point on game. Because I know, true that a flat point, larger meplat bullet is a better killing bullet.
But to say that alloy, makes less of a difference when compared to velocity and profile, is flat untrue.
Without proper velocity you dont have squat.
Without a good shape you have less damage on tissue.
Without proper alloy you also have LESS DAMAGE on tissue.
CW
gutshot_again
New Member
I disagree. With a flat meplat you don't need expansion. Heat treated WW's at 32 bhn hold together, do not expand yet put a 2" hold through a deer. If they don't drop on the spot, they bleed out very quickly. Try that with a round nose and you will get a pencil hole. This is first hand experience, not something I read.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree, as I've said, a flat meplat is much preferred to round nose.
But you're getting into alloys, which is my point. We all should know that BHN is just a number. You can arrive there with all kinds of different alloy formulations, some, more brittle than others. That's my point for naming linotype & Babbit. As its extreem ends of hardness.
As well as my point that alloy makes a difference.
CW
fiver
Well-Known Member
it kind of does but it isn't as important as the others.
i see a lot of guys using lino-type in their 22's thinking the brittle alloy will simply break apart on a small animal.
it doesn't work like that, even at the 28-2900 fps. range.
slowing it down doesn't work any better.
cutting the alloy in half doesn't make a difference either [except in the ability to hit a 5 ounce ground squirrel another hundred yards away]
the nose shape and impact speed are the keys to making a bullet work.
hell even Hornady knows that and tells you the window in their boxes of XTP bullets.
i see a lot of guys using lino-type in their 22's thinking the brittle alloy will simply break apart on a small animal.
it doesn't work like that, even at the 28-2900 fps. range.
slowing it down doesn't work any better.
cutting the alloy in half doesn't make a difference either [except in the ability to hit a 5 ounce ground squirrel another hundred yards away]
the nose shape and impact speed are the keys to making a bullet work.
hell even Hornady knows that and tells you the window in their boxes of XTP bullets.
todd
Well-Known Member
i agree, but i have never shot a cast RN on deer. i have shot a doe last year with my TC Encore in 444 Marlin with a 23" MGM barrel and 280gr WFN GC (Lyman #2 with skosh of tin, i guess 15BHN+/-)) with Reloder 7 going 1937fps. i shot her at 40ish yards and you could see the bright red blood coming out behind the shoulder. she ran about 20ish yards, leaking blood the whole way. a blind man could have followed it. i don't do exact measurements, so.... the entrance wound was about 1/2" thru the muscle. however when it got into the lung tissue, there was a 2 - 3" wound channel, then the boolit goes out (more muscle) the deer in a 1/2" exit wound. i can't remember if it the ribs or did not. i shot another doe that was 15ish yards away with my Husqvarna m46 in 9,3x57 with 275gr WFN GC (Lyman #2 and a skosh of tin) and IRM4895 that goes roughly 1800fps. the boolit did the same as before, wrecked the back of the lungs. the 30-40 Krag with 173gr Ranch Dog (COWW and a skosh of tin, 12BHN+/-) and H4198 that goes 1924fps, the boolit also does the same thing as the 444 boolit. but if you take the 444 and the 280gr boolit and go approximately 2300-2400fps, but that's a different story. i shot a doe with 275gr Ranch Dog with a warm load of H4198 and it was going roughly 2300-2400fps. i shot the doe in the shoulder and it blew out lungs and heart and then the boolit went right behind the shoulder(offside) and then it went about a 2 - 3" hole. i threw away a shoulder and a big part of the side because it was so bloodshot. i slowed the powder charge down (1800-1900fps) so my impact speed should be around 1700-1800fps for a deer. i shoot deer 30-40 yards, while once in a while i will shoot 60ish yards.
about 140-150lb doe, the entrance would is right behind the shoulder, about 1/3 of the way up, you will see a dark spot
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Bullet technology has come a long way over the years, certainly. It's improving and predictability of performance is more certain than it was in 1980. Still--we have to accept that while internal and external ballistics are hard established sciences......terminal ballistics remain an art form that we are just begging to grasp and apply.
I won't waste bandwidth on redcoats like the Nosler Partition and Barnes TSX/TTSX--they are pretty decent, take it all around.
The castings......we're back to the 19th Century tech level with those, and it's not a bad place to be. It's limiting in places, but we can work around that much of the time. 'Expansion'? Kind of a crapshoot--Bruce B Soft Points showed some promise but have been rendered verboten in the PRK where I hunt now.
We're back to the Old Classic Elements--Diameter, Weight/Mass, Velocity, Form Factor. Assume zero expansion, like Gen. Hatcher did with his Index of Relative Stopping Power. Unlike most calculated predictions of terminal effect Hatcher squared the one element that empirically squares itself in the natural world--Diameter. He also employed Mass in place of Weight and added a Shape Factor element to the equation, and flat points get a '1.25' multiplier over the 0.9 factor of the FMJRN (he assumed 'Hague Accords' and their non-expanding anti-personnel bullet mandates here).
Yeah, Hatcher's work involved handguns and armed exchanges of finality--we are talking hunting and harvesting game. But are they so different? Both involve engagement of thin-skinned targets under 300# in weight at varying distances with constructively non-expanding bullets.
Heresies were way overdue, so here y'all go!
I won't waste bandwidth on redcoats like the Nosler Partition and Barnes TSX/TTSX--they are pretty decent, take it all around.
The castings......we're back to the 19th Century tech level with those, and it's not a bad place to be. It's limiting in places, but we can work around that much of the time. 'Expansion'? Kind of a crapshoot--Bruce B Soft Points showed some promise but have been rendered verboten in the PRK where I hunt now.
We're back to the Old Classic Elements--Diameter, Weight/Mass, Velocity, Form Factor. Assume zero expansion, like Gen. Hatcher did with his Index of Relative Stopping Power. Unlike most calculated predictions of terminal effect Hatcher squared the one element that empirically squares itself in the natural world--Diameter. He also employed Mass in place of Weight and added a Shape Factor element to the equation, and flat points get a '1.25' multiplier over the 0.9 factor of the FMJRN (he assumed 'Hague Accords' and their non-expanding anti-personnel bullet mandates here).
Yeah, Hatcher's work involved handguns and armed exchanges of finality--we are talking hunting and harvesting game. But are they so different? Both involve engagement of thin-skinned targets under 300# in weight at varying distances with constructively non-expanding bullets.
Heresies were way overdue, so here y'all go!
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Without going too far down a rabbit hole, I agree with everything Al wrote. I’ll add that in a two-way battle, death is not the critical factor but rather rapid incapacitation. What the bullet hits is extremely important. Taking that into account, bullet expansion is just the icing on the cake; penetration is the first and most important criteria after bullet placement. If the bullet doesn’t penetrate deep enough to reach something important, then all the expansion of the projectile is useless. A FMJ round that passes completely through the target and takes out the brain stem on its way through is equally as effective as perfectly expanded bullet that takes the same path. The discussion gets morbid quickly but that’s reality.
Expansion can improve the odds of successful rapid incapacitation but only if adequate penetration still occurs. Sometimes, but not always, expansion limits penetration to a degree that it is counterproductive.
Perfectly mushroomed bullets sell cartridges and components, but that beautifully symmetrical expanded bullet does not always translate into an accurate indicator of performance.
There are so many variables involved in terminal ballistics that the best we can hope for is to improve the odds. There are no absolutes. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t significantly improve the odds.
The criteria for self defense ammunition is the following and in this order:
Expansion can improve the odds of successful rapid incapacitation but only if adequate penetration still occurs. Sometimes, but not always, expansion limits penetration to a degree that it is counterproductive.
Perfectly mushroomed bullets sell cartridges and components, but that beautifully symmetrical expanded bullet does not always translate into an accurate indicator of performance.
There are so many variables involved in terminal ballistics that the best we can hope for is to improve the odds. There are no absolutes. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t significantly improve the odds.
The criteria for self defense ammunition is the following and in this order:
- It must be 100% reliable in the weapon. This is not optional and there are no exceptions.
- It must reliably penetrate an acceptable distance.
- It must be reasonably accurate at the ranges expected.
- It would be nice if it expanded if that expansion doesn’t reduce penetration below acceptable limits.
todd
Well-Known Member
he usually uses a boolit that is around 20-22BHN
around 14:50ish
i agree with Petrol. i use either COWW and a skosh of tin (12BHN+/-) or Lyman #2 with a skosh of tin (15BHN+/-) to kill deer. mst of the time, my aimpoint will be behind the shoulder and the boolit will go behind the off shoulder. the wound cavity goes around 1" to 3", depending on the caliber of the boolit. since i'm going to shoot deer 60 yards and less, my muzzle velocity will be 1900fps on the high end and 1600fps on low end (different calibers). i do have a 500 Linebaugh (23" MGM barrel) and its velocity is around 1220-1230fps with 450gr LFN GC (22BHN, Montana Bullet Works) and HS-6 that still needs blooded.
i've shot quite a few deer with my Ruger SBH (4 5/8" barrel) with 250gr penta HP, 255gr Keith-type SWC with a 44 Special and 280gr WFN in 44 Mag. since i didn't take my chronograph, i'd go with what the book said, 44 Spl going around 900fps and the 44 Mag going around 1000fps with Unique on both. the penetration on all three was good enuff for me, meaning the boolit went out of the deer at ranges of 15 -30 yards.
i do have boolits that i dug out of my target berm (50 and 100 yards).
50 yards/ 173gr Ranch Dog and 275gr Ranch Dog
100 yards/ left two are 275gr Ranch Dogs, the right two, i'm not sure, i can't remember that long, but i think its a 405gr RNFN in 45-70.
penetration along with either FN or WFN is key to taking deer down.
around 14:50ish
i agree with Petrol. i use either COWW and a skosh of tin (12BHN+/-) or Lyman #2 with a skosh of tin (15BHN+/-) to kill deer. mst of the time, my aimpoint will be behind the shoulder and the boolit will go behind the off shoulder. the wound cavity goes around 1" to 3", depending on the caliber of the boolit. since i'm going to shoot deer 60 yards and less, my muzzle velocity will be 1900fps on the high end and 1600fps on low end (different calibers). i do have a 500 Linebaugh (23" MGM barrel) and its velocity is around 1220-1230fps with 450gr LFN GC (22BHN, Montana Bullet Works) and HS-6 that still needs blooded.
i've shot quite a few deer with my Ruger SBH (4 5/8" barrel) with 250gr penta HP, 255gr Keith-type SWC with a 44 Special and 280gr WFN in 44 Mag. since i didn't take my chronograph, i'd go with what the book said, 44 Spl going around 900fps and the 44 Mag going around 1000fps with Unique on both. the penetration on all three was good enuff for me, meaning the boolit went out of the deer at ranges of 15 -30 yards.
i do have boolits that i dug out of my target berm (50 and 100 yards).
50 yards/ 173gr Ranch Dog and 275gr Ranch Dog
100 yards/ left two are 275gr Ranch Dogs, the right two, i'm not sure, i can't remember that long, but i think its a 405gr RNFN in 45-70.
penetration along with either FN or WFN is key to taking deer down.