350 Legend powders

[BBerguson]

CVA Cascade bolt action with 22 inch barrel

Bullet is the Lee 358-200 RF (200 gr.)

What would be the slowest powder you guys would try in this? I’ve tried IMR 4227 up to 16gr but the sweet spot for accuracy is 14gr. I’d like to try IMR 3031, which I’ve used successfully in the 45-70 and maybe IMR 4198. Zero data for this anywhere. I know from experience if I go to low on the powder charge I’ll get squib loads, Saw this in the 45-70 with some bullets chronographed at 135 fps. Yeah, saw them land in the grass and even recovered one.

Just experimenting here as I have no need to make this shoot any faster, just pure curiosity.

 

[Michael]

Toodle on over to Hodgdon's site and their data center. They list 10 powders in the 296 to 1680 burn rate, all but one showing in excess of 2000fps using a 180gr slug, a couple are in the 2200fps range. Velocity isn't everything but at least the data demonstrates some potential. No reason that 200 grainers could not be used with an appropriate reduction in charge weights. 4227 is showing, 22.7gr start and 24.7gr max, you could work up higher than 16gr and still have room for error and may find another node. Re 3031, I would say is way to slow for complete burn. 4198 might fit the bill with 200's and moderate velocities for the 350. The slowest Hodgdon is data for is 1680 and CFE Black.

 

[Tomme boy]

Go higher on the 4227. 5744 max is about 20.5gr. 1680 is good but did not work it up to far. 4198 should work. RL7 works well too. 2400 works well. Just depends on what you want to do. Being bolt action the skies the limit.

 

[BBerguson]

I go to the hodgdon site a lot but they are always lacking on cast bullet info. I think you might be right about 3031 being too slow but it is a fairly heavy bullet for this cartridge and sized to .358 so there might be enough resistance to work. I won‘t know unless I try. I do intend to use poly fill to hold the powder against the primer for the best chance of igniting it properly.

I’ve gone higher with the 4227 but accuracy goes to crap. I‘ve noticed that with other pistol/shotgun powders, once I hit a certain point the accuracy suffers. I’m using ”pure” wheel weights for all my bullets, powder coated of course. Do you suppose I need a harder alloy?

These bullets are gas checked and sized to .358. Only other sizer I have in this range is .356 but I can’t imagine sizing smaller would help. I don’t have any 5744 or 1680. Lots of 4227, Blue Dot, 296 and 2400 along with lots of slower rifle powders.

 

[fiver]

try the 3031.
i use 2230 in my Max with a 250, i used top end 1680 data and went from there.

the worst thing that happens is you end up with a case full and lowish 1200 fps velocities.
IMR used to put out data for stuff like 4895 in the 45 colt, your not gonna hurt anything.

 

[RBHarter]

I wasn't paying attention to which 35 we were working on .......this is for a 358 Win .......

IMR 4350 up to the shoulder under the 35-250 does 2100 fps .
I'm pretty sure the 3031-200 will go faster than 12-1400 .

 

[Michael]

I go to the hodgdon site a lot but they are always lacking on cast bullet info.

Don't worry about not finding cast bullet data, you can take load data for jacketed bullets and use it for cast bullets of the same weight and be ok due to cast being so much softer and less resistant than lead. Just don't do it the other way around. Naturally some jacketed data is not suitable for cast, ie not going to swap out a 85gr Nosler Balllistic Tip sitting on top of 55gr of RL19 in a 25-06, for a 257312. But in respect to normal cast bullet velocities jacket bullet data can be used.

 

[Missionary]

Look up loads for the 357 Max (Suupermag) revolver and figure on 275 fps more from a longer barrel. Plus there are lots of carbine loads.
Your longer brass will give that extra length to add to.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Tomme gave ya it straight. I have used most named and all work for me in bolt most in AR.

One of my favorite loads in a 185g NOE bullet over 12g of Blue Dot for about 1400 fps.

 

[Bret4207]

Don't worry about not finding cast bullet data, you can take load data for jacketed bullets and use it for cast bullets of the same weight and be ok due to cast being so much softer and less resistant than lead. Just don't do it the other way around. Naturally some jacketed data is not suitable for cast, ie not going to swap out a 85gr Nosler Balllistic Tip sitting on top of 55gr of RL19 in a 25-06, for a 257312. But in respect to normal cast bullet velocities jacket bullet data can be used.

Bingo! Just because the data says it's for jacketed doesn't mean you can't use it for cast. Pressures should be lower is all.

 

[fiver]

not always,, and in a fixed breech system i'd bet against the pressure being lower with cast.
your dealing with a much better plug holding the gas back.

where you come out ahead is in the lower engraving pressure and lower friction in the barrel.
those are both stuff that happens later on in the sequence.

 

[BBerguson]

Would you guys agree that with ta slower powders, like 3031, I couldn’t put enough in to cause an over pressure problem? I thought I’d start really low anyways, like 15 grains and then use enough poly fill to hold the powder tight against the primer. I do that now with 4227 and small pistol primers and I don’t get any squibs or hang fires.

 

[Tomme boy]

16gr of 2400 will give you about 1650fps with that 200gr bullet in a 16" bolt action. It shoots soft and is pretty accurate.

Why are you sizing 0.358"? That gun has a 0.355" barrel. Go to 0.356" It does not need to be the oversized bullet if it is PC'ed.

Make sure you have enough neck tension. You will feel it when seating a bullet. Some may be easier to seat than others. I ran into this with mine. I traced it down to not using enough lube to size the cases. And yes you have to use lube to size "THIS" straight wall case. And it still needs a very slight crimp.

Skip the filler. It might be what is giving you bad accuracy. It is not needed in this cartridge because of the small internal volume. Try the 4198. Here is a link for Lee 357 max data. You can use any of this data and be safe as the 350l operates at a much higher pressure. https://archive.org/details/Modern_Reloading_1st_Edition_by_Richard_Lee/page/440/mode/2up

 

[fiver]

i probably wouldn't exceed 21grs. with a 200-210gr. bullet.
and the velocity might surprise you.

 

[BBerguson]

Don't worry about not finding cast bullet data, you can take load data for jacketed bullets and use it for cast bullets of the same weight and be ok due to cast being so much softer and less resistant than lead. Just don't do it the other way around. Naturally some jacketed data is not suitable for cast, ie not going to swap out a 85gr Nosler Balllistic Tip sitting on top of 55gr of RL19 in a 25-06, for a 257312. But in respect to normal cast bullet velocities jacket bullet data can be used.

I know what you’re saying… I’ve been reloading since I was 12, casting and loading for pistol since I was 21 (I’m 57) but only loading cast in rifles for about 2.5 years. It’s a different animal! When I start casting for a different caliber it’s like getting a new rifle. I got six new rifles in the past 2.5 years, not really but it feels like it!

I use the manufacture’s sites for starting points. I trust the guys here with their experience much more than the computer generated load data online. I know their warnings are sometimes from experience and they always give advice like I give my kids, always in their best interest. And sometimes I’m pretty sure of the answer but need some reassurance!

 

[BBerguson]

i probably wouldn't exceed 21grs. with a 200-210gr. bullet.
and the velocity might surprise you.

Thanks fiver! I’m going to start with small pistol primers just to see how well they’ll light the powder. They’re working great so far with 4227. I’ll go to small rifle if I need to.

 

[Bret4207]

not always,, and in a fixed breech system i'd bet against the pressure being lower with cast.
your dealing with a much better plug holding the gas back.

where you come out ahead is in the lower engraving pressure and lower friction in the barrel.
those are both stuff that happens later on in the sequence.

I stand corrected. Should have said something like "often" of "possibly". In overall terms though, the data can be used or at least extrapolated from.

 

[Bret4207]

16gr of 2400 will give you about 1650fps with that 200gr bullet in a 16" bolt action. It shoots soft and is pretty accurate.

Why are you sizing 0.358"? That gun has a 0.355" barrel. Go to 0.356" It does not need to be the oversized bullet if it is PC'ed.

Make sure you have enough neck tension. You will feel it when seating a bullet. Some may be easier to seat than others. I ran into this with mine. I traced it down to not using enough lube to size the cases. And yes you have to use lube to size "THIS" straight wall case. And it still needs a very slight crimp.

Skip the filler. It might be what is giving you bad accuracy. It is not needed in this cartridge because of the small internal volume. Try the 4198. Here is a link for Lee 357 max data. You can use any of this data and be safe as the 350l operates at a much higher pressure. https://archive.org/details/Modern_Reloading_1st_Edition_by_Richard_Lee/page/440/mode/2up

Good post!

 

[Michael]

When I start casting for a different caliber it’s like getting a new rifle.

So very true, I had this very same discussion with another friend of mine a couple of years ago, a new mold is a new rifle, back to square one. Then if you get a MP or NOE mold with HP pins, then it is two or even three new firearms. Then there are all of the various body and nose sizing options, maybe a mold in GC/PB.

Oh look! MP, Midway, NOE, etc has molds on sale, cool, just what is needed, wait, Eastwood has PC powders on sale too. Kaa-Ching... scoorre. Hang on a minute, need to check ebay, or see what Brad is thinning out.

Question: You can only use one mold per month, which will happen first, die, hell freezes over, or the the second coming, before getting through all of them.

Certifiable nut jobs. Better than a shoe fetish.

 

[BBerguson]

I don’t own any HP molds yet, one of these days. Good to know about getting two or three new rifles with an HP mold, I need some more guns that don’t take any room in the safe. But my first one will probably end up being a slug mold for my 25 caliber air rifle. NOE makes some specifically for air guns.

I filled a 350L case with 3031 last night, it weighed about 33 grains. To the base of a seated 200gr bullet, my best guess on fill point, the powder weighed 25 grains. I’m going to load 2 or 3 tonight or tomorrow with 14grs, small pistol primer and poly fill. I’ll take a cleaning rod too in case I need to remove a bullet from the barrel, or, I’ll just plan on shooting them last.